In Fourteen Hundred And Ninety-Two Columbus Sailed The Ocean Blue

[+ purplekow]

Natives exploited natives. Europeans exploited Europeans. Asians exploited Asians. Africans exploited Africans. Just the way humans are. And when they came into contact with each other they continued on.

While that is true, there is nothing particular heroic or admirable about it and certainly demeaning an entire civilization by some of its worst traits, such as human sacrifice, is rather narrow viewed.

[+ Avalon]

Your arrogance is totally Eurocentric. Learn something about the cultures of the indigenous populations of the Americas and compare that to the fiefdoms and egalitarian civilization of Europe and perhaps you may not feel that Europe was so superior.

 

I know the Mayans had a superior calendar.

 

Europeans and natives fought. The Europeans won. History happens.

[+ purplekow]

I know the Mayans had a superior calendar.

 

Europeans and natives fought. The Europeans won. History happens.

History happens, arrogance dismisses entire civilizations. What you stated: "I don't know what kind of civilization it is where people practice human sacrifice and cannibalism." Avalon.

By the way, some might say that a civilization that developed superior weaponry was not all that civilized.

[+ Avalon]

While that is true, there is nothing particular heroic or admirable about it and certainly demeaning an entire civilization by some of its worst traits, such as human sacrifice, is rather narrow viewed.

 

I don't believe that all cultures are worthy of admiration or emulation. Civilizations rise and fall. No Egyptians today could build the Pyramids.

[+ purplekow]

Well admiration and recognition are not the same. I recognize your posts but as far as admiration of the ones on this thread....not so much. I find them short sighted and rather ignorant. Post away, I have dinner to prepare. Dismal.

[mike carey]

Human sacrifice is uncivilised, burning witches is civilised. Gotcha.

[+ Avalon]

Human sacrifice is uncivilised, burning witches is civilised. Gotcha.

 

Of course not. Though I'm a 5th generation American I'm of English heritage. I pointed out that one reason Claudius gave for invading Britain was because the Druids practiced human sacrifice. It was an evil and I believe the Romans were justified. Are there any English people today who have animus today over the Romans occupying the land for centuries? And only today a few sadly admire the Druids.

 

Yet I see some Mexicans admiring their Aztec ancestors.

[+ Avalon]

Well admiration and recognition are not the same. I recognize your posts but as far as admiration of the ones on this thread....not so much. I find them short sighted and rather ignorant. Post away, I have dinner to prepare. Dismal.

 

I admit to being Eurocentric. My favorite writers are Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Dante, Shakespeare. I have no white guilt. I don't believe in collective guilt only individual responsibility.

[+ WilliamM]

I admit to being Eurocentric. My favorite writers are Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Dante, Shakespeare. I have no white guilt. I don't believe in collective guilt only individual responsibility.

 

But not apparently Joyce, Proust, Kafka and Mann. I believe only Thomas Mann received the Nobel Prize for Literature.

[+ Avalon]

But not apparently Joyce, Proust, Kafka and Mann. I believe only Thomas Mann received the Nobel Prize for Literature.

 

I have never read them. Remember I am a dinosaur!

[+ WilliamM]

I have never read them. Remember I am a dinosaur!

 

Mann's novella 'Death in Venice' has a gay story line. The novella became a successful movie, later an opera and later a full- length German ballet.

[+ Avalon]

Mann's novella 'Death in Venice' has a gay story line. The novella became a successful movie, later an opera and later a full- length German ballet.

 

I saw the movie. I thought that it was boring.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_Venice_(film)

[+ WilliamM]

I saw the movie. I thought that it was boring.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_Venice_(film)

 

I visited the Nobel Museum in Sweden, Mann's 1929 citation mentions his shorter stories more than his novels. He was one of leading German exile from National Socialist Germany. Hitler set his books on fire.

[+ WilliamM]

Well admiration and recognition are not the same. I recognize your posts but as far as admiration of the ones on this thread....not so much. I find them short sighted and rather ignorant. Post away, I have dinner to prepare. Dismal.

 

below, there not their

 

He does not realize their is a community of sorts here, and occasional giving in once in a while might help in a far more important disagreement. If he is not well physically, perhaps more people should know.

[+ PapaTony]

Sorry @Avalon, there are distinctions to be made here. North America was inhabited already (not heavily populated of course, although the inhabitants were widespread enough) and Columbus thought he had reached somewhere else entirely so I would object to the use of the word "discovery" in this instance. And after all the Vikings had a short-lived settlement in Canada several hundred years before where they seem to have traded with the locals so you can't even say Columbus was the first European to reach it. None of that should diminish the pioneering spirit of the man, though.

 

I was taught without equivocation in school "Columbus discovered America". That is not only factually incorrect in regard to the meaning of the word, but it also encapsulates a euro-centric view of the world that is deeply unfortunate. That of course was a long rime ago and I think UK schools treat it differently now.

So true, which proves, by celebrating Columbus, the notion of white privledge stretches back more than 500 years.

[+ Avalon]

below, there not their

 

He does not realize their is a community of sorts here, and occasional giving in once in a while might help in a far more important disagreement. If he is not well physically, perhaps more people should know.

 

I have not been outside now for 100 days.

[alkan]

Of course not. Though I'm a 5th generation American I'm of English heritage. I pointed out that one reason Claudius gave for invading Britain was because the Druids practiced human sacrifice. It was an evil and I believe the Romans were justified. Are there any English people today who have animus today over the Romans occupying the land for centuries? And only today a few sadly admire the Druids.

 

Yet I see some Mexicans admiring their Aztec ancestors.

I missed this post earlier somehow. Your phrase "one reason Claudius gave" suggests it wasn't the real reason. But are you saying that a stronger nation has a right to invade a weaker one if it believes itself to be morally superior?

[mike carey]

I have no white guilt. I don't believe in collective guilt only individual responsibility.

There are two separate concepts that are widely confused and conflated, often deliberately to enable people to deny any sort of responsibility. One is collective guilt, the other is some sort of collective or historical responsibility. I agree that there is no place for collective guilt, at least not after the immediate time has passed. Even then the concept of collective guilt is often misused to condemn a whole group when only certain parts of the group were responsible. To use your example, white people today are not guilty of things that some white people did to other racial groups in the past, nor are they collectively responsible for them. What they do have a responsibility to do is recognise the inherent disadvantage that POC suffer because of past discrimination, and the inherent advantage they have because of they way that discrimination caused society to be structured. Yes, individuals have responsibility, but it's delusional to think that there is now a level playing field. Certainly there is individual disadvantage that occurs within ethnic groups, but there is also systemic disadvantage that is structural. It's not as simple as telling the people who face this disadvantage that overcoming it is all down to them. Our forbears created the society that this happens in because it suited us, to refuse to acknowledge that is an act of historical blindness. (This acceptance is a separate issue from anything that might be done to redress it.)

[mike carey]

I pointed out that one reason Claudius gave for invading Britain was because the Druids practiced human sacrifice. It was an evil and I believe the Romans were justified.

Oh, yes, the Romans were paragons of virtue in their kindness and respect for human life. They were justified in stopping evil druidic practices. Do you actually listen to and think about things that you are saying?

[BabyBoomer]

I have not been outside now for 100 days.

 

What's the record? Does your doctor's make house calls? What about blood work & urinalysis? What about x-rays? EKG? CT-scans? MRIs?

 

~Boomer~

[+ WilliamM]

I have not been outside now for 100 days.

 

To be fair, his not being able to leave his apartment for months may explain why Avelon post so often.

 

Best wishes for a medical recovery,@Avalon.

[+ PapaTony]

Regarding Mexico's "flourishing" civilization - I don't know what kind of civilization it is where people practice human sacrifice and cannibalism.

 

And regarding "theft". There have always been battles and wars. The indigenous fought each other in the Americas and Europeans fought each other in Europe. Now the two fought each other. There are winners and losers.

 

One of the reasons Claudius gave for going to war in Britain was because the Druids there practiced human sacrifice.

 

Some think the natives here in the New World lived in peace and harmony with each other and with nature. Nonsense! One of the reasons Cortes was able to conquer the Aztecs was because he had native allies who readily joined him because they had been oppressed by the Aztecs.

Not much different from the Romans who threw people to the lions.

[+ WilliamM]

What's the record? Does your doctor's make house calls? What about blood work & urinalysis? What about x-rays? EKG? CT-scans? MRIs?

 

~Boomer~

 

Come on. By this time, even if there was a remove chance @Avalon could physically leave his apt., he may be afraid to try. Totally understable.

[+ Avalon]

As I've shared before. I have arthritis in both knees. And it became worse February of last year. It got so the only place I'd drive was to the doctor's office. In between I'd start my car up once a week. Late April of this year when I went out to the parking lot I fell down. Someone saw me and called the rescue squad and they got me back into my apartment (on a gurney). I order groceries online but the store does not deliver. My landlord brings them to me (and puts them away). I have a rent mail box in the same shopping center and he brings me my mail also.

 

My doctor told me that knee surgery is not an option.

 

I have other ailments. Diabetes for 10+ years. That stopped my sex life. It killed my mother in her 50s. Although her mother lived into her 80s it cost her both legs (amputated below the knees). I have diabetic neuropathy (toe pain), high blood pressure, gout etc.. I take a dozen plus meds. Plus daily insulin shots.

 

I've not had a haircut now in 3.5 years. I stopped shaving several months ago; I can't stand up that long. I have a bathtub / shower but can't step into it and even if I could I would not be able to stand that long. I take "spit baths".

 

My apartment is long and narrow. Bedroom at one end and kitchen at the other. Living room in the middle. I can't walk from one end to the other without stopping to sit in the living room.

 

After I fell I signed up for Life Alert.

 

Life goes on! C'est la vie!

[Guy Fawkes]

So how many years before one becomes an Indigenous person?

 

So we will celebrate “Indigenous People’s Day” Monday 10/8