The Last Person in a War to Get Shot

[Luv2play]

Ever since February I have been increasingly envious of my American friends on this forum who had received both shots of Covid vaccines and were freer to move about as government restrictions eased. Here in Canada the rollout was slower but has been gaining momentum in the last two months.

So yesterday I received my second shot of Pfizer and in two weeks I should be ready to go. But where?

Today we expect to hear some more announcements by the Canadian government of further relaxation of rules but I'm not holding my breath. If they are true to form, it will be a very measured and cautious move, especially concerning the borders.

P.S. Is anyone else here still waiting to be completely vaccinated or was I the last person shot?

[CuriousByNature]

1 hour ago, Luv2play said:

Ever since February I have been increasingly envious of my American friends on this forum who had received both shots of Covid vaccines and were freer to move about as government restrictions eased. Here in Canada the rollout was slower but has been gaining momentum in the last two months.

So yesterday I received my second shot of Pfizer and in two weeks I should be ready to go. But where?

Today we expect to hear some more announcements by the Canadian government of further relaxation of rules but I'm not holding my breath. If they are true to form, it will be a very measured and cautious move, especially concerning the borders.

P.S. Is anyone else here still waiting to be completely vaccinated or was I the last person shot?

I'm in Ontario and still waiting for dose number two.  Relatives in BC are a bit ahead, and those in Alberta are a bit behind.  I think Canada has done quite well for a country without a domestic supply of vaccine, but hopefully the powers that be will restart vaccine manufacturing before the next pandemic comes around.  

[Guest]

On 6/21/2021 at 6:04 AM, Luv2play said:

...

So yesterday I received my second shot of Pfizer and in two weeks I should be ready to go. But where?

...

P.S. Is anyone else here still waiting to be completely vaccinated or was I the last person shot?

Congratulations. In terms of not transmitting to others if you get sick, you're safe 2 weeks after the 1st shot. In terms of full efficacy data against illness, Pfizer's data started 1 week after the 2nd shot, so you're as protected as you're going to be. Of course, governments and private industry can put forth any guidelines they want, regardless of what the science actually shows, and some guidelines will say 2 weeks after the 2nd shot regardless (Moderna started looking at data 2 weeks after 2nd shot, J&J 2 weeks after the one and only shot). I think Australia's vaccination program was the most inept among non 3rd-world countries, so I suspect @mike careymay still be waiting. 

[mike carey]

13 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

I think Australia's vaccination program was the most inept among non 3rd-world countries, so I suspect @mike careymay still be waiting. 

The vaccine stroll-out here has been appalling, but in its speed, not necessarily the medical principles behind it. The TGA approved the AZ vaccine when it had become clear from UK experience that the results were better if the second shot was later than the originally prescribed three weeks. Now that a vaccine single shot is proving less effective, even in preventing serious disease, against the Delta variant, that is being questioned, and the current approval guidelines of 12 weeks may be reduced to speed the rate of full vaccination. I haven't had my first shot, not because I can't but because I haven't negotiated the process to book an appointment. AZ is not recommended here or people under 60 here, because of the clotting issue, that will have made it easier for me to get the AZ jab.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mike carey said:

....AZ is not recommended here or people under 60 here, because of the clotting issue, that will have made it easier for me to get the AZ jab.

The association of clots with the AZ vaccine is with pre-menopausal women only (presumably since estrogen is a procoagulant). There is no association with men, so I would go out and get the vaccine if it's available to you. By the way, the virus is much, much more procoagulant than the vaccine. Much of the damage from Covid-19 comes from the blood clots it induces. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/texas-man-declined-covid-19-vaccine-speaks-undergoing/story?id=78321152

"Joshua Garza had a chance to get vaccinated against COVID-19 in January but he passed it up, thinking he didn't really need it. Now, the 43-year-old Texan is hoping to inspire others to get the shot after he became so ill following his COVID-19 diagnosis that he needed a rare double lung transplant to survive."

It's been known for over a year that blood clotting is one of the infection's chief dangers, so it seems a little silly to overplay the risks of the vaccine, which are minute in comparison to the risks of the illness:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanhae/article/PIIS2352-3026(20)30151-4/fulltext

"The latest data suggest the incidence of thrombotic complications is between 16–49% in patients with COVID-19 admitted to intensive care."

A more recent summary:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanhae/article/PIIS2352-3026(21)00105-8/fulltext

"COVID-19 is associated with a high incidence of thrombotic complications, which can be explained by the complex and unique interplay between coronaviruses and endothelial cells, the local and systemic inflammatory response, and the coagulation system."

So I would figure a way to negotiate the system if I were you. Don't be a sot--get your shot! 😉

Edited June 24, 2021 by Unicorn

[Guest]

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-benefits-still-outweigh-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots

"There have been very rare cases of unusual blood clots accompanied by low levels of blood platelets (components that help blood to clot) after vaccination. The reported cases were almost all in women under 55."

To put it more plainly. the slightly elevated level of blood clots seen than in the general population was only seen in the pre-menopausal women age group (other groups' blood clots rates were the same as the unvaccinated). 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Unicorn

[mike carey]

11 hours ago, Unicorn said:

The association of clots with the AZ vaccine is with pre-menopausal women only (presumably since estrogen is a procoagulant). There is no association with men, so I would go out and get the vaccine if it's available to you.

So I would figure a way to negotiate the system if I were you. Don't be a sot--get your shot! 😉

I'm not reluctant in the slightest. It's just a matter of arranging to have my first shot, and it will be AZ, that's the only one available to me now. I'm not worried about AZ, I know that the risk of disease is higher, and the clotting syndrome is extremely rare but easily treatable.

I hadn't seen any reporting on the gender of people who suffered from the clotting syndrome. There have only been two deaths here, both women. One was 52 and the other 48. If the older were post-menopausal, she could easily have still been on HRT which would conform to your hypothesis. From the reporting I've found this afternoon, an early report here cited two of the eight cases that week were men, and in a report on the early German experience 28 of 31 cases were women (although the cohort receiving the vaccine were health care workers who were mainly women). That would tend to suggest women are more susceptible although not uniquely so. In any case, since I wasn't concerned about the vaccine, evidence that men can't or are less likely to have a clot doesn't change my calculations.

[MscleLovr]

In the UK, the blood-clotting risk as a side-effect of the AZ vaccine was IMO elegantly described as "being smaller than the risk of being killed in a road accident on the way to your appointment at the vaccination centre".

As an aside to earlier comments, I heard a talk by the Oxford haematologist who first spotted this risk (in 2 young men aged under 25 who had been newly vaccinated). She became alert to this as it was an "extraordinarily rare side-effect" that she had previously encountered in a patient being treated with warfarin.

The UK vaccination roll-out continues apace: those aged under 40 are given the option to take the AZ vaccine or several others; about 62% of people have now been vaccinated (32 million have had both shots, while 11 million have had their first shot). While older people were given appointments, the emphasis now is on vaccinating young people so dozens of centres are open through the weekends so that people may simply walk up to be vaccinated.

And for those who believe that if vaccinated, they cannot get the virus or transmit it, there was a good article in the NY Times today. (I copied it in full for any non-subscribers)

You’re Vaccinated for Covid-19, and You Just Tested Positive. Now What?

Although the risk of vaccinated people becoming infected with the coronavirus is low, it can still happen, the C.D.C. says. Here’s what you need to know.

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A vaccination site in El Paso, Texas, in May. Although the risk of vaccinated people becoming infected with the coronavirus is low, it can still happen, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and doctors.Credit...Jose Luis Gonzalez/Reuters

By Johnny Diaz

June 23, 2021

Leer en español

Like millions of Americans, Kevin was vaccinated against Covid-19 in March to protect himself. But the Tuesday after visiting bars with friends over a rainy Memorial Day weekend in Provincetown, Mass., he had a running nose and some congestion.

“I thought it was typical springtime allergies in New England,” said Kevin, 42, who spoke on the condition that his last name not be used. The symptoms worsened to headaches, body aches and sleepless nights. His doctor told him that it might be the flu but suggested a coronavirus test. The result was positive.

 

The Delta Variant: What Scientists Know

“You don’t think it will be you,” said Kevin, who isolated in his Provincetown townhome for 10 days.

 

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“At the end of the day, the vaccination still worked,” he said. “I didn’t get as sick as people who got Covid prior to the vaccination being available.”

‘Breakthrough’ cases are rare.

If you’re one of the small number of fully vaccinated people who later test positive for Covid-19, what should you do?

Covid vaccines have been highly effective in preventing Covid-19, especially hospitalization and death, and are generally working as expected, doctors say. The vaccines also reduce the risk of spreading the virus.

Although the risk of vaccinated people becoming infected with the virus is low, it can still happen, experts said.

“Yes, this will happen, unusual but will happen,’’ said Dr. Sandro Galea, dean of the Boston University School of Public Health.

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Those rare cases are called breakthrough infections and as of April 30, there were more than 10,000 of these infections reported from 46 American states and territories, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The C.D.C. has stopped recording such infections if there are no severe symptoms, so the number for cases, including mild ones, is most likely higher.

 

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What to do if it happens to you?

A fully vaccinated person who experiences symptoms consistent with Covid-19 should isolate themselves from others, the C.D.C. said.

“Broadly, someone who tests positive should isolate for 10 days,” Dr. Galea, noting C.D.C. guidelines, said.

Dr. Eric Cioe-Peña, director of Global Health at Northwell Health in New Hyde Park in New York, said the guidelines were not much different from those for someone who tested positive before the vaccines were available.

“You still have to isolate,” he said. “You still have to contact trace with the understanding that your peace of mind is a little bit better.”

People should also inform their health care provider of their positive result. If you leave home to go to the doctor, wear a mask and practice social distancing.

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Is this helpful?

“Fundamentally, though, someone should isolate and then retest, with the latter probably in consultation with a provider,” Dr. Galea said.

 

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But what about people in your home?

The infected person should stay in a separate “sick room” or area and use a separate bathroom, if available.

“If possible, maintain six feet between the person who is sick and other household members,” the C.D.C. said.

This is important because an infected person — even one without symptoms — could pass the virus to someone who is unvaccinated, including children under the age of 12 or people who cannot get a vaccine because of immune-related or other health issues.

The center noted that the coronavirus spreads between people who are in close contact through respiratory droplets that are produced when someone talks, coughs or sneezes. The virus also spreads through respiratory droplets among people who share the same indoor space.

But, Dr. Cioe-Peña said, the level of virus in the nose and droplets are not as contagious in a vaccinated person.

“You probably aren’t going to pass this on,” he said.

Residents should frequently disinfect touched surfaces in the household if someone is sick or has tested positive for Covid-19.

It might be helpful to turn on fans and open doors and windows for fresh ventilation in the residence. And do not share household items such as utensils, cups and towels for the quarantine period, the C.D.C. said.

 

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How serious are breakthrough symptoms?

Dr. Cioe-Peña said an infected person who had been vaccinated might have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all.

“In the post-vaccine era, testing Covid-positive is a lot less scary,” he said. For “the vast majority of people — 99.9 percent of the time — I am going to be OK. I am going to have a mild case. I may not even notice.”

The most serious symptoms include nasal congestion and mild body aches, said Dr. Sunil Sood, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at South Shore University Hospital in Bay Shore in New York.

“It would be the mildest of the end of the spectrum of Covid-19,” he said. “It may be just a mild common cold.”

But this may be different in vaccinated individuals with weak immune systems like older adults and people with certain medical conditions or those who take certain medications.

There have been some high profile cases.

The TV host Bill Maher was fully vaccinated when he tested positive last month during weekly staff testing, prompting HBO to reschedule the taping of two of his shows. At the time, he said he felt “perfectly fine.”

On June 10, two fully-vaccinated passengers aboard a Celebrity cruise ship tested positive and had to isolate, according to the Royal Caribbean Group. The passengers were asymptomatic.

 

 

And in May, the Yankees’ two-time All-Star shortstop, Gleyber Torres, tested positive after vaccination, as did three coaches and four staff members.

While most infections are likely to produce mild or no symptoms, many of these cases would not have been discovered without routine screening.

Will this become more common?

“We are going to see people pop up and be positive, but it’s not meaningful because your chances of passing it to someone are much lower,” Dr. Cioe-Peña said. “Certainly, we will hear stories — my friend’s neighbor got vaccinated and tested positive. If we continue to get people vaccinated, we will hear these stories of one-offs.”

Still, doctors emphasize the effectiveness of the vaccines and encourage people to be fully vaccinated as supplies and appointments are now widely available in the United States. This is particularly true as the new highly contagious Delta variant becomes more widespread during the summer travel season.

“It provides a solid degree of protection,” Dr. Sood said. “It provides the freedom to move around and go on with your daily life and activities almost before it was this pandemic.”

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MscleLovr said:

...And for those who believe that if vaccinated, they cannot get the virus or transmit it, there was a good article in the NY Times today. (I copied it in full for any non-subscribers)...

 

It's been well-known, since well before any of the vaccines were even licensed, that the vaccines are "only" 95% effective at preventing infection, so the information that the vaccinated can "get" the virus is nothing new (it's been known since September 2020). But your post suggests that the vaccinated can "transmit" the virus. There was no evidence for any truthfulness to that suggestion in the article you quoted. There have been billions of doses of vaccine administered in the world, hundreds of millions in the US alone. Do you know of any single case of a vaccinated person transmitting the virus? Or how about any case of a fully vaccinated person transmitting measles, mumps, or polio? If it happens, it's obviously extraordinarily rare. 

Doses given	Fully vaccinated	% of population fully vaccinated
2.84B 2,840,000,000 +44.1M +44,100,000	806M 806,000,000 +5.84M +5,840,000	10.3% 10.3% +0.1%     California Doses given Fully vaccinated % of population fully vaccinated 41.8M 41,800,000   19.2M 19,200,000   48.6% 48.6%   United States Doses given Fully vaccinated % of population fully vaccinated 321M 321,000,000 +815K +815,000 151M 151,000,000 +465K +465,000 46.1% 46.1% +0.1% +0.1%

[Luv2play]

It is obvious that if 5 percent of fully vaccinated people can still acquire the virus, then they can transmit it as well. They could even be asymptomatic and not realize they are infectious. And anyone catching it from them may not be aware whom they caught it from. 

In. Canada 45 per cent of infected people can't say how they caught it. Probably same in US 

[Luv2play]

10 hours ago, mike carey said:

I'm not reluctant in the slightest. It's just a matter of arranging to have my first shot, and it will be AZ, that's the only one available to me now. I'm not worried about AZ, I know that the risk of disease is higher, and the clotting syndrome is extremely rare but easily treatable.

I hadn't seen any reporting on the gender of people who suffered from the clotting syndrome. There have only been two deaths here, both women. One was 52 and the other 48. If the older were post-menopausal, she could easily have still been on HRT which would conform to your hypothesis. From the reporting I've found this afternoon, an early report here cited two of the eight cases that week were men, and in a report on the early German experience 28 of 31 cases were women (although the cohort receiving the vaccine were health care workers who were mainly women). That would tend to suggest women are more susceptible although not uniquely so. In any case, since I wasn't concerned about the vaccine, evidence that men can't or are less likely to have a clot doesn't change my calculations.

We've had at least one case I know of where a 60 yo man suffered a VITT which caused a serious stroke. He did have conditions which made him susceptible to getting the disease so he took the AstraZeneca. He had diabetes and was obese 

His stroke was serious. The doctors diagnosed it was caused by the vaccine 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Luv2play
Typo

[MscleLovr]

42 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

your post suggests that the vaccinated can "transmit" the virus. There was no evidence for any truthfulness to that suggestion in the article you quoted

You’re entitled to your opinion @Unicorn. But you are wrong to state the above.

In the article (and shown above), the CDC said “an infected person — even onewithout symptoms — could pass the virus to someone whois unvaccinated, including children under the age of 12 orpeople who cannot get a vaccine because of immune-related or other health issues.”

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Luv2play said:

It is obvious that if 5 percent of fully vaccinated people can still acquire the virus, then they can transmit it as well. They could even be asymptomatic and not realize they are infectious. And anyone catching it from them may not be aware whom they caught it from. 

....

 

What kind of an inane, preposterous statement is that? One made by someone who clearly knows nothing about immunology, virology, or how vaccines work. The only thing that's obvious is your complete absence of understanding on these subjects. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MscleLovr said:

You’re entitled to your opinion @Unicorn. But you are wrong to state the above.

In the article (and shown above), the CDC said “an infected person — even onewithout symptoms — could pass the virus to someone whois unvaccinated, including children under the age of 12 orpeople who cannot get a vaccine because of immune-related or other health issues.”

 

The fact that one can imagine it doesn't make it true. Where's the data/science? Billions have bought lottery tickets because, theoretically, they could win. Winning a Super Loto or Mega Millions jackpot is an extraordinarily rare event, however. It wouldn't be wise as a retirement plan. A statement that something could happen is not evidence of anything really happening (let alone evidence that it happens with enough frequency to be worth worrying about). 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Luv2play said:

...In. Canada 45 per cent of infected people can't say how they caught it. Probably same in US 

Wow. That's incontrovertible evidence that vaccinated people can transmit the virus. I've never seen such outrageously convincing evidence in all my life. 

[Luv2play]

When you can't provide cogent and valid arguments, you resort to name calling, insults and slurs. That's not how to convince people about the accuracy of your statements. 

You seem to be intolerant of people challenging your often contentious or dubious claims.  Your problem, not mine.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Luv2play said:

We've had at least one case I know of where a 60 yo man suffered a VITT which caused a serious stroke. He did have conditions which made him susceptible to getting the disease so he took the AstraZeneca. He had diabetes and was obese 

His stroke was serious. The doctors diagnosed it was caused by the vaccine 

Wow, once again you only show your complete lack of understanding of science. You think one person having a condition after receiving a vaccine which countless millions have received, is evidence of something??? To show that something is even associated, you would have to show that the prevalence is higher than the background prevalence. This issue has been examined and studied. There is a slight risk in women under 55, and ONLY in women under 55. Unless there's a new study of which I'm unaware, those are the facts. Your last sentence doesn't make sense, but I'm going to take it to mean that one or more doctor made a statement to the effect that he or she felt that the vaccine was responsible for the blood clots. Again, that's a stupid statement. One could only conclude that if and only if there was at least SOME evidence that blood clots are more likely in the patient's demographic. Even then, one could only say "X% more likely." 

Of course, there are some conditions, such a recent hip surgery or certain cancers, where the risk of blood clots is so high, that one really could say "Not being placed on blood thinners after the hip surgery almost certainly caused the blood clots." But to simply say B happened because of A just because B happened after A just shows wanton ignorance and foolishness. It's really completely brainless. Being 60 and obese are reasons enough to get blood clots. 

Finally, even if blood clots are more likely (say 8 in a million on a background of 5 in a million), one still needs to put that in the perspective of the risk of not getting vaccinated. And it is well-known that the virus leads to an extremely high risk of blood clotting (among other bad things the virus does). 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

When you can't provide cogent and valid arguments, you resort to name calling, insults and slurs. That's not how to convince people about the accuracy of your statements. 

You seem to be intolerant of people challenging your often contentious or dubious claims.  Your problem, not mine.

I've referenced multiple studies to back up my statements. You just pull out ideas out of your head, based on lack of understanding of the science and facts at hand. I haven't done any name-calling/insults. I didn't say YOU were ignorant, inane, or preposterous. I said your statements were. And they are. 

[MscleLovr]

13 hours ago, Unicorn said:

The fact that one can imagine it doesn't make it true. Where's the data/science? Billions have bought lottery tickets because, theoretically, they could win. Winning a Super Loto or Mega Millions jackpot is an extraordinarily rare event, however. It wouldn't be wise as a retirement plan. A statement that something could happen is not evidence of anything really happening (let alone evidence that it happens with enough frequency to be worth worrying about). 

 

12 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Wow. That's incontrovertible evidence that vaccinated people can transmit the virus. I've never seen such outrageously convincing evidence in all my life. 

Thank you for your many posts @Unicorn expressing your opinions and for so bravely posting a photo of yourself. 
 

I shall continue to follow the advice and information from the CDC as I know they deal expertly with the many scientific aspects related to this virus.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, MscleLovr said:

...

I shall continue to follow the advice and information from the CDC as I know they deal expertly with the many scientific aspects related to this virus.

Finally something sensible! The CDC states that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks under any situation--because they know they can't pass on the virus:

[+ WilliamM]

3 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Finally something sensible! The CDC states that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks under any situation--because they know they can't pass on the virus:

@Unicorn Respectfully, aren't you retired now?

[Luv2play]

4 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Finally something sensible! The CDC states that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks under any situation--because they know they can't pass on the virus:

I personally think that the Delta mutation is going to bite the CDC in the ass. Along with the Americans.

[Luv2play]

On 6/25/2021 at 1:28 PM, Unicorn said:

It's been well-known, since well before any of the vaccines were even licensed, that the vaccines are "only" 95% effective at preventing infection, so the information that the vaccinated can "get" the virus is nothing new (it's been known since September 2020). But your post suggests that the vaccinated can "transmit" the virus. There was no evidence for any truthfulness to that suggestion in the article you quoted. There have been billions of doses of vaccine administered in the world, hundreds of millions in the US alone. Do you know of any single case of a vaccinated person transmitting the virus? Or how about any case of a fully vaccinated person transmitting measles, mumps, or polio? If it happens, it's obviously extraordinarily rare. 

Doses given	Fully vaccinated	% of population fully vaccinated
2.84B 2,840,000,000 +44.1M +44,100,000	806M 806,000,000 +5.84M +5,840,000	10.3% 10.3% +0.1%     California Doses given Fully vaccinated % of population fully vaccinated 41.8M 41,800,000   19.2M 19,200,000   48.6% 48.6%   United States Doses given Fully vaccinated % of population fully vaccinated 321M 321,000,000 +815K +815,000 151M 151,000,000 +465K +465,000 46.1% 46.1% +0.1% +0.1%

Actually if you read the entire article, which some people have a problem with if they have attention deficit disorder, it clearly states vaccinated people who acquire the virus should ISOLATE as they MAY transmit the virus.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Luv2play
Typo

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

I personally think that the Delta mutation is going to bite the CDC in the ass. Along with the Americans.

I agree that the delta mutation could add a bad twist to this story, especially with almost 1 in 3 Americans refusing to get vaccinated. Yesterday Israel reported vaccinated people have gotten sick with it, though not seriously. I don't feel bad about the unvaccinated in the US, since that's purely their choice to ignore the health experts. For the vaccinated, the risk is similar to the risk of influenza after getting the influenza shot: you might still get sick, but almost certainly won't die from it. With such a massive number of unvaccinated, however, there's still a chance of the healthcare system being overwhelmed. At least almost all of the most vulnerable have been vaccinated. I would feel very bad, though, for those few who can't be vaccinated, and for healthcare workers if the numbers become overwhelming. Canadians could get bitten in the ass, too, if they don't step up their vaccination efforts. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Unicorn

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Actually if you read the entire article, which some people have a problem with if they have attention deficit disorder, it clearly states vaccinated people who acquire the virus should ISOLATE as they MAY transmit the virus.

And you MAY win the Mega Millions jackpot. Why don't you spend a fortune on lottery tickets?