Challenges of Moving Countries for Retirement or Employment

[mike carey]

There is an active and interesting thread in the Personal Finance forum that started out asking about issues involved in retiring to Vietnam on $US1,000 a month. The thread has ranged widely to discuss moving to lower cost countries to enjoy a better lifestyle on a first world retirement income, dealing with issues like health care in an unfamiliar system, living abroad part time and the difficulties (or reluctance) to learn the local language. The last applies to retired people moving to lower cost countries and workers from them living in rich countries.

That thread has strayed from the personal finance involved (and also from just Vietnam although many observations are universal), and needs to return to the financial issues. This is a place to continue the wider conversation. Have fun, and plan away.  I think I feel a visit to CDMX coming on, although not permanently and not by train and bus from a US border city this time.

[+ José Soplanucas]

51 minutes ago, mike carey said:

There is an active and interesting thread in the Personal Finance forum that started out asking about issues involved in retiring to Vietnam on $US1,000 a month. The thread has ranged widely to discuss moving to lower cost countries to enjoy a better lifestyle on a first world retirement income, dealing with issues like health care in an unfamiliar system, living abroad part time and the difficulties (or reluctance) to learn the local language. The last applies to retired people moving to lower cost countries and workers from them living in rich countries.

That thread has strayed from the personal finance involved (and also from just Vietnam although many observations are universal), and needs to return to the financial issues. This is a place to continue the wider conversation. Have fun, and plan away.  I think I feel a visit to CDMX coming on, although not permanently and not by train and bus from a US border city this time.

I am right now starting this transition. I will work for sure one more year in the US, I just signed my new contract. This year, I will be teleworking from Argentina from mid November 2024 to mid January 2025. After June 2025, my future is blurred, but my goal is to switch to a full teleworking contract to work from South America all year long. Otherwise, I will be retiring earlier (I turn 62 this October) and moving back to Argentina. My home base would be in Corrientes (Argentine NE), and would be much closer to Brazil and Colombia to spend part of the year in those countries. 

 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

it’s easy to get visas for retirement for a variety of countries  - those visas are typically classified as “non-lucrative” and prohibit any work while in that country.  also usually requires becoming a tax-resident whether or not you live there most of the time. most require proving adequate financial resources necessary to support the visa-holder(s) in retirement. 

working & living in another country where you don’t have citizenship is another matter & not easy unless it’s a “digital-nomad” visa where the person works remote from a company based abroad.  

most countries don’t allow any visas for foreigners to live & work in the country - it’s viewed as taking a job away from someone that lives there.  there are some exceptions for highly-skilled workers that companies relocate for specific jobs. 

[+ Charlie]

I was born and raised in the US and have lived here for the majority of my life, but I also studied, lived and worked in other countries when I was younger. Naturally, when I retired, I gave some thought to retiring abroad. However, retiring to one of the countries I had lived in previously didn't make financial sense, because the living conditions were not any cheaper than one could find in the US. The places that might make financial sense were places where I didn't speak the language (a major consideration), and where I was not sure of what kind of medical care I could expect. Being a healthy 65 year old foreigner with plenty of money can be very exciting in a new country; being an elderly (e.g., over 75) foreigner with no family in a country where one isn't fluent in the language, doesn't know the way around local bureaucracies even after living there for several years, and may no longer have dependable health, is no fun at all.  When my partner, who loved European travel, said he wanted us to retire to London (where he worked as a young man) so we could be close to places on the continent which we could visit frequently, I nixed the idea, and I'm glad I did. Now he is physically unable to travel at all, and we would have been stuck far from family and old friends, in a place where we were simply a couple of old queens who didn't even qualify for the social assistance we could expect in the US. I think I have mentioned here before the case of an English friend of mine, a sophisticated schoolmaster, who retired to a small town in Portugal, because he thought he could live there more comfortably on his limited retirement income than he could at home in England. After ten years there, he would phone me, practically sobbing, about how miserably isolated he felt there. I have no regrets about retiring to California, which is quite exotic enough for me.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

12 hours ago, Charlie said:

think I have mentioned here before the case of an English friend of mine, a sophisticated schoolmaster, who retired to a small town in Portugal, because he thought he could live there more comfortably on his limited retirement income than he could at home in England

he made a poor choice for two reasons.  first, a small town in a foreign country with little to no expat community will ensure isolation.  second, if retiring abroad for economic reasons alone, meaning lower cost of living - then yes, I expect that would lead to someone feeling isolated because probably can’t afford to travel to return to home country whenever the urge hits.  Vietnam would be a deal-breaker given distance from US for me.

lots of positives about retiring abroad - but definitely not for everyone.  willingness & determination to learn the local language is essential no matter where you choose - if not, isolation will certainly follow no matter the location.  being close to a major airport also helps if the idea is extensive travel while in retirement or to return to home country at will. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

13 hours ago, Charlie said:

I was born and raised in the US and have lived here for the majority of my life, but I also studied, lived and worked in other countries when I was younger. Naturally, when I retired, I gave some thought to retiring abroad. However, retiring to one of the countries I had lived in previously didn't make financial sense, because the living conditions were not any cheaper than one could find in the US. The places that might make financial sense were places where I didn't speak the language (a major consideration), and where I was not sure of what kind of medical care I could expect. Being a healthy 65 year old foreigner with plenty of money can be very exciting in a new country; being an elderly (e.g., over 75) foreigner with no family in a country where one isn't fluent in the language, doesn't know the way around local bureaucracies even after living there for several years, and may no longer have dependable health, is no fun at all.  When my partner, who loved European travel, said he wanted us to retire to London (where he worked as a young man) so we could be close to places on the continent which we could visit frequently, I nixed the idea, and I'm glad I did. Now he is physically unable to travel at all, and we would have been stuck far from family and old friends, in a place where we were simply a couple of old queens who didn't even qualify for the social assistance we could expect in the US. I think I have mentioned here before the case of an English friend of mine, a sophisticated schoolmaster, who retired to a small town in Portugal, because he thought he could live there more comfortably on his limited retirement income than he could at home in England. After ten years there, he would phone me, practically sobbing, about how miserably isolated he felt there. I have no regrets about retiring to California, which is quite exotic enough for me.

Any migration plan is challenging, many people fail and return to their country of origin or remain unhappily surviving/thriving in their new country. If you plan the move for after retiring, I guess the challenge is even greater as you are old and less flexible and able/willing to learn. At any age, transitioning to a new culture is difficult and requires a special character and personality, imagine once you are older.

By the way, there is a resource for expatriate that I am not sur you all know:

Cost of Living Comparisons, 2024 data.

WWW.EXPATISTAN.COM

---

Cost of Living comparisons for thousands of cities. Fully up-to-date cost of living comparisons, including prices of 52 products and services.

I specially like their cities rank:

Cost of Living Index. Updated Jun 2024

WWW.EXPATISTAN.COM

---

Jun 2024 Cost Of Living Index. What are the most expensive, and the cheapest, cities in the World?

 

[+ JamesB]

1 hour ago, José Soplanucas said:

Any migration plan is challenging, many people fail and return to their country of origin or remain unhappily surviving/thriving in their new country. If you plan the move for after retiring, I guess the challenge is even greater as you are old and less flexible and able/willing to learn. At any age, transitioning to a new culture is difficult and requires a special character and personality, imagine once you are older.

By the way, there is a resource for expatriate that I am not sur you all know:

Cost of Living Comparisons, 2024 data.

WWW.EXPATISTAN.COM

---

Cost of Living comparisons for thousands of cities. Fully up-to-date cost of living comparisons, including prices of 52 products and services.

I specially like their cities rank:

Cost of Living Index. Updated Jun 2024

WWW.EXPATISTAN.COM

---

Jun 2024 Cost Of Living Index. What are the most expensive, and the cheapest, cities in the World?

 

 

While this might give a rough idea of the cost of living in another country, in my experience, it is not a reliable source. Many of the figures are either misleading or outright incorrect.

[+ José Soplanucas]

54 minutes ago, JamesB said:

 

While this might give a rough idea of the cost of living in another country, in my experience, it is not a reliable source. Many of the figures are either misleading or outright incorrect.

THANK YOU! I always wonder about that. Do you have a more reliable source?

[+ JamesB]

1 hour ago, José Soplanucas said:

THANK YOU! I always wonder about that. Do you have a more reliable source?

In my opinion, nothing beats the boots-on-the-ground approach. Moving to a foreign country is a significant and costly decision, so I recommend visiting the place yourself. Remember, visiting as a tourist is very different from living there. Go to the supermarket and check the prices of the products you consume. Hire a driver to take you around different neighborhoods and towns to find where you would feel comfortable living. Then, check out local real estate sites for prices in those areas. You may even want to visit a few rental properties (always rent first in a new country) to see them in person. Talk to locals to get an idea of the costs of utilities like electricity, gas, phone, and internet. Visit both public and private hospitals to understand the quality and cost of medical care. Explore the available transportation options and determine which suits you best, then check their prices. Get quotes for health insurance and any other necessary insurance, such as home or car insurance. This will give you a more realistic picture of the cost of living.

[samhexum]

Boomers are leaving America to retire abroad in droves because the U.S. is just too expensive

When Allan Fawcett decided to retire from his career in computer science in 2011, he knew he wanted to spend at least a few years traveling, particularly around Europe. After decades working in tech, he was ready, as he says, to give his mind a rest. "Computer programming destroyed my brain," he tells Fortune. "I needed an escape."

What he didn't know is that that escape would become permanent. He met his now-wife, Elisabeth, shortly after he retired, and eventually took the leap to move permanently to Spain with her.

Fawcett, now 67 and a Spanish resident through marriage, couldn't be happier about his decision. Though his wife still works, he spends his days playing tennis, reading, and going to the beach or cafés with expat friends in Barcelona. He and his wife are able to travel around the continent, even planning a trip to Paris for the Olympics this year.

The same lifestyle wouldn't be possible in the U.S., Fawcett says. Housing is much more affordable, food is inexpensive, and the wine is even less so. The mass transit system is a godsend; Fawcett doesn't have a car and doesn't need one to get around. Walkability is also a major benefit.

"It's a good life here," says Fawcett, who became a resident in 2019. "Outdoor dining is everywhere, the weather is amazing. Everything is very cheap."

Fawcett is part of a growing trend of retirees, spurred by America's retirement crisis, who are moving abroad instead of spending their golden years in the U.S. In December 2022, there were over 700,800 people receiving Social Security payments abroad, according to the most recently available data from the Social Security Administration. In 2000, that figure was less than 400,000.

Some move abroad because they simply cannot comfortably live on a fixed retirement income in the U.S., where the costs of housing and healthcare, especially, are becoming increasingly unaffordable. A substantial number of retirees rely almost completely on Social Security payments to make ends meet in the U.S., which average around $1,900 per month. A growing portion of elderly Americans live in poverty, with social services few and far between, if they are accessible at all.

Others always dreamed of travel and immersing themselves in other cultures. And still others could afford to stay in the U.S. but realized how much more they could get for their money abroad.

'It costs us next to nothing'

The latter is true for Susan Keenan Sweeney and her husband, Joe, who moved to Hungary in 2015 (Joe was born in Hungary, but moved away as a child). Though Sweeney, 69, had done well for herself in a career in banking software in the states and even retired early in Florida, she was put off by the increasingly high costs of housing and health care.

When she and her husband visited Hungary before the move, they looked at the affordable cost of living and slower pace of life and decided, almost "on a whim," to move. They now own a home in the countryside, about two hours outside of Budapest, surrounded by vineyards. Sweeney gardens and revels in the seasonal fresh produce that's available at the nearby market, making jams and jellies at home; the couple spends their winters in Spain, and travels extensively around Europe the rest of the year.

 

Susan Keenan Sweeney and her husband, Joe Horvath, in Budapest.

Sweeney also points to the extensive public transit system as a major plus—it is free to use for those over 65, and there is a train station at the base of the hill they live on—as is the sense of safety and community they feel. They save thousands a year in property taxes compared to Florida, and expat health insurance is a fraction of the cost of American health insurance, she says. One of their biggest monthly expenses is their U.S. Hulu subscription, which they watch via VPN.

"I’d like to think I’m on the cutting edge of where to retire," says Sweeney. "It costs us next to nothing to live here."

 

The trade-offs of living abroad

There are drawbacks, of course. The rest of Sweeney's family is in the states, so they need to plan trips to see each other. The cultural differences can be difficult to manage, at least at first, and Sweeney is still learning the basics of Hungarian. There's not the same level of individual wealth in Spain as in the U.S., Fawcett points out; the typical salary is far lower than the six-figure jobs you can find in the states. And of course, the income tax burden is much higher.

Sweeney and Fawcett wouldn't have been able to save the amount of money they did throughout their high-paying careers in the U.S. had they spent their careers in Europe. Most of their investments are still in U.S. financial institutions because of the difficulty to move them. And there is plenty of other bureaucracy and red tape to move through to move abroad. Sweeney and her husband enlisted a lawyer to help them buy their home;

"The first couple of years are taking care of bureaucracy more than anything," says Fawcett. "Anything you want in Spain requires a ton of paperwork."

But the standard of living is much better for a wider swath of the population than it is in the U.S., Fawcett contends. There are the small things, like fresher, less expensive groceries and concert tickets being much more affordable and accessible. And then there are the larger benefits, like months of paid maternity leave, inexpensive secondary education, and affordable health care.

"It’s not the U.S.," says Sweeney. "They do things differently here, and that’s why we’re here."

And while universal health care systems like those in Hungary and Spain are often criticized for long waiting times and the potential for subpar care compared to the U.S., both Fawcett and Sweeney are satisfied with the standard of care they've received, including through surgeries and major procedures like colonoscopies. One drawback is that many providers don't necessarily speak English; Sweeney says if something major happened, they'd consider flying back to the U.S. for care because of the language barrier.

"If you walked in here as an American and went to a doctor’s office, I'd have to pick you up off the floor," says Sweeney of the culture shock. "There’s none of the dealing with the insurance. It’s walk in, see the doctor, walk out."

Mindy Yu, director of investing at Betterment, warns those interested in retiring abroad to take the time to plan for the considerable financial, legal, and logistical pitfalls.

"It’s crucial to avoid seeing retiring abroad as the cheaper option and instead begin saving as early as possible, while diversifying your portfolio to avoid risk," says Yu. "Consulting a tax professional with international expertise is crucial, as living abroad may also come with new tax obligations, both to the U.S. and your new country of residence."

Fawcett plans to remain in Spain with his wife, especially as she is the caretaker for her 91-year-old mother and has grown children in the area. Sweeney, too, says she and her husband are in Hungary for the long haul, though they may eventually move from the vineyards to Budapest.

"I would urge anybody who is going to do it, go on vacation and rent a house and look around. You find yourself in some places where you never would have dreamed you’d be," says Sweeney. "If you’re retired and you have a few months, what the hell?"

This story was originally featured on Fortune.com

[SouthOfTheBorder]

many people are leaving the US for other reasons - not just about costs.

the overall environment is very toxic with nonstop political stuff from all sides.  who wants to be surrounded by that in retirement ?

I’ve witnessed several older family members waste years being addicted to politics, angry & bitter.  now they’re dead. what good did it do them ?  nothing - and it didn’t change one thing.  not an uncommon story these day.

 

Edited July 8 by SouthOfTheBorder

[+ Charlie]

7 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

many people are leaving the US for other reasons - not just about costs.

the overall environment is very toxic with nonstop political stuff from all sides.  who wants to be surrounded by that in retirement ?

my parents wasted years being addicted to politics, angry & bitter.  now they’re dead. what good did it do for them ?  nothing - completely wasted last years of life.  and that’s far from a unique story 

 

One only has to read the news to see how the environment can be filled with "nonstop political stuff from all sides" in many parts of the world. However, as a foreigner, you also have no influence over decisions that may affect your own life there (like the American couple in the post above who have retired to Hungary).

[+ Charlie]

53 minutes ago, samhexum said:

Boomers are leaving America to retire abroad in droves because the U.S. is just too expensive

When Allan Fawcett decided to retire from his career in computer science in 2011, he knew he wanted to spend at least a few years traveling, particularly around Europe. After decades working in tech, he was ready, as he says, to give his mind a rest. "Computer programming destroyed my brain," he tells Fortune. "I needed an escape."

What he didn't know is that that escape would become permanent. He met his now-wife, Elisabeth, shortly after he retired, and eventually took the leap to move permanently to Spain with her.

Fawcett, now 67 and a Spanish resident through marriage, couldn't be happier about his decision. Though his wife still works, he spends his days playing tennis, reading, and going to the beach or cafés with expat friends in Barcelona. He and his wife are able to travel around the continent, even planning a trip to Paris for the Olympics this year.

The same lifestyle wouldn't be possible in the U.S., Fawcett says. Housing is much more affordable, food is inexpensive, and the wine is even less so. The mass transit system is a godsend; Fawcett doesn't have a car and doesn't need one to get around. Walkability is also a major benefit.

"It's a good life here," says Fawcett, who became a resident in 2019. "Outdoor dining is everywhere, the weather is amazing. Everything is very cheap."

Fawcett is part of a growing trend of retirees, spurred by America's retirement crisis, who are moving abroad instead of spending their golden years in the U.S. In December 2022, there were over 700,800 people receiving Social Security payments abroad, according to the most recently available data from the Social Security Administration. In 2000, that figure was less than 400,000.

Some move abroad because they simply cannot comfortably live on a fixed retirement income in the U.S., where the costs of housing and healthcare, especially, are becoming increasingly unaffordable. A substantial number of retirees rely almost completely on Social Security payments to make ends meet in the U.S., which average around $1,900 per month. A growing portion of elderly Americans live in poverty, with social services few and far between, if they are accessible at all.

Others always dreamed of travel and immersing themselves in other cultures. And still others could afford to stay in the U.S. but realized how much more they could get for their money abroad.

'It costs us next to nothing'

The latter is true for Susan Keenan Sweeney and her husband, Joe, who moved to Hungary in 2015 (Joe was born in Hungary, but moved away as a child). Though Sweeney, 69, had done well for herself in a career in banking software in the states and even retired early in Florida, she was put off by the increasingly high costs of housing and health care.

When she and her husband visited Hungary before the move, they looked at the affordable cost of living and slower pace of life and decided, almost "on a whim," to move. They now own a home in the countryside, about two hours outside of Budapest, surrounded by vineyards. Sweeney gardens and revels in the seasonal fresh produce that's available at the nearby market, making jams and jellies at home; the couple spends their winters in Spain, and travels extensively around Europe the rest of the year.

 

Susan Keenan Sweeney and her husband, Joe Horvath, in Budapest.

Sweeney also points to the extensive public transit system as a major plus—it is free to use for those over 65, and there is a train station at the base of the hill they live on—as is the sense of safety and community they feel. They save thousands a year in property taxes compared to Florida, and expat health insurance is a fraction of the cost of American health insurance, she says. One of their biggest monthly expenses is their U.S. Hulu subscription, which they watch via VPN.

"I’d like to think I’m on the cutting edge of where to retire," says Sweeney. "It costs us next to nothing to live here."

 

The trade-offs of living abroad

There are drawbacks, of course. The rest of Sweeney's family is in the states, so they need to plan trips to see each other. The cultural differences can be difficult to manage, at least at first, and Sweeney is still learning the basics of Hungarian. There's not the same level of individual wealth in Spain as in the U.S., Fawcett points out; the typical salary is far lower than the six-figure jobs you can find in the states. And of course, the income tax burden is much higher.

Sweeney and Fawcett wouldn't have been able to save the amount of money they did throughout their high-paying careers in the U.S. had they spent their careers in Europe. Most of their investments are still in U.S. financial institutions because of the difficulty to move them. And there is plenty of other bureaucracy and red tape to move through to move abroad. Sweeney and her husband enlisted a lawyer to help them buy their home;

"The first couple of years are taking care of bureaucracy more than anything," says Fawcett. "Anything you want in Spain requires a ton of paperwork."

But the standard of living is much better for a wider swath of the population than it is in the U.S., Fawcett contends. There are the small things, like fresher, less expensive groceries and concert tickets being much more affordable and accessible. And then there are the larger benefits, like months of paid maternity leave, inexpensive secondary education, and affordable health care.

"It’s not the U.S.," says Sweeney. "They do things differently here, and that’s why we’re here."

And while universal health care systems like those in Hungary and Spain are often criticized for long waiting times and the potential for subpar care compared to the U.S., both Fawcett and Sweeney are satisfied with the standard of care they've received, including through surgeries and major procedures like colonoscopies. One drawback is that many providers don't necessarily speak English; Sweeney says if something major happened, they'd consider flying back to the U.S. for care because of the language barrier.

"If you walked in here as an American and went to a doctor’s office, I'd have to pick you up off the floor," says Sweeney of the culture shock. "There’s none of the dealing with the insurance. It’s walk in, see the doctor, walk out."

Mindy Yu, director of investing at Betterment, warns those interested in retiring abroad to take the time to plan for the considerable financial, legal, and logistical pitfalls.

"It’s crucial to avoid seeing retiring abroad as the cheaper option and instead begin saving as early as possible, while diversifying your portfolio to avoid risk," says Yu. "Consulting a tax professional with international expertise is crucial, as living abroad may also come with new tax obligations, both to the U.S. and your new country of residence."

Fawcett plans to remain in Spain with his wife, especially as she is the caretaker for her 91-year-old mother and has grown children in the area. Sweeney, too, says she and her husband are in Hungary for the long haul, though they may eventually move from the vineyards to Budapest.

"I would urge anybody who is going to do it, go on vacation and rent a house and look around. You find yourself in some places where you never would have dreamed you’d be," says Sweeney. "If you’re retired and you have a few months, what the hell?"

This story was originally featured on Fortune.com

It is worth noting that these couples are not typical native-born Americans expats. Fawcett's wife appears to be a Spaniard who works there, and therefore is already at home in that culture (her mother and grown children live there, too). Sweeney's husband was born in Hungary and left as a child, but probably had already developed some native facility in the language. Hungarian is a very difficult language to learn,  especially for an elderly person, because it is unrelated to any other language that an American is likely to have been exposed to (unless one grew up in a Finnish-American community in the upper Midwest).

[BSR]

1 minute ago, Charlie said:

It is worth noting that these couples are not typical native-born Americans expats.

Good point.  As people have mentioned in other threads, many expats living abroad cannot or will not learn the local language, which causes all sorts of problems, causing some to give up & leave.

I can't imagine retiring in a country but not bothering to learn the language, although I've met a fair number who do just that.  Personally, I'd feel too isolated, even if I made strong friendships amongst the expat community.  But in the end, to each his own.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, Charlie said:

One only has to read the news to see how the environment can be filled with "nonstop political stuff from all sides" in many parts of the world. However, as a foreigner

from my own experience the world over, but especially in Western Europe - it’s considered rude & extremely poor taste to discuss anything political in a social situation.  It really doesn’t happen because most everyone understands it’s not the time or place.  And they seldom hold a political party affiliation as key part of their identity.  

In the US, politics is a very common topic in any social situation.  It’s rare to avoid it completely.  And Americans loudly broadcast their party affiliation in any number of ways.  For many Americans this is a key part of who they are.  And that’s the entire problem.

and due to the quirks of the US electoral system (which isn’t real democracy anyway) - you only have “influence” in national elections if you live in a handful of swing states. If you don’t live in a swing state - your vote means very little in national context, meaning Presidency and all of the policy that flows from that. 

 

Edited July 8 by SouthOfTheBorder

[+ José Soplanucas]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:18 AM, JamesB said:

 

While this might give a rough idea of the cost of living in another country, in my experience, it is not a reliable source. Many of the figures are either misleading or outright incorrect.

I have been checking the data and although it is not 100% reliable, it is a very useful source. Idk other regions, as I am only interested in South America, I am only checking that data and it is quite reliable.

Good news for me. Bolivia and Colombia were the cheapest countries in the subcontinent. After Brazil's 10% devaluation, several Brazilian cities have became very competitive. For instance, Foz is the cheapest city out of the ones included in the list, very close to what my main base will be once I move back to Argentina (city of Corrientes).

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Very interesting discussion.

About five years back, I bought property in CDMX, initially using it for short-term rental and eventually keeping it more open as I spend more time in the city.

Eventually, I'll call it home.  MX has always felt like a place I'd end up.  It just ticks all of the boxes.

That said, if I didn't speak Spanish, I wouldn't consider the permanent move.  You must learn the language of where you're going.

[CuriousByNature]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:48 PM, Charlie said:

 we would have been stuck far from family and old friends, in a place where we were simply a couple of old queens who didn't even qualify for the social assistance we could expect in the US. 

London is the perfect place for a couple of old queens.  In fact, there are precedents:

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 7/8/2024 at 9:40 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

In the US, politics is a very common topic in any social situation.  It’s rare to avoid it completely

It can be done.  I never talk politics in social situations.  I keep the topic to religion and race relations, something everyone can agree on.

[+ José Soplanucas]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:02 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

many people are leaving the US for other reasons - not just about costs.

the overall environment is very toxic with nonstop political stuff from all sides.  who wants to be surrounded by that in retirement ?

I’ve witnessed several older family members waste years being addicted to politics, angry & bitter.  now they’re dead. what good did it do them ?  nothing - and it didn’t change one thing.  not an uncommon story these day.

 

Motivations seem economic. 

Why Some Americans Are Renouncing Their Citizenship And Moving Abroad

WWW.FORBES.COM

---

Renunciations of U.S. citizenship is now at an all time high. The process is complex and requires careful planning and execution. But it can be done. Here's...

Do you have any data to support your claim? Otherwise, it looks like you are carrying on the family tradition by bringing politics to this thread.

 

[+ augustus]

On 7/8/2024 at 12:40 PM, José Soplanucas said:

Good news for me. Bolivia and Colombia were the cheapest countries in the subcontinent. After Brazil's 10% devaluation, several Brazilian cities have became very competitive. For instance, Foz is the cheapest city out of the ones included in the list, very close to what my main base will be once I move back to Argentina (city of Corrientes).

If you rely on a 10% currency devaluation on deciding where to live, your situation sounds very difficult.  

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, augustus said:

If you rely on a 10% currency devaluation on deciding where to live, your situation sounds very difficult.  

Yes, you know how dumb I am.

[soloyo215]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:20 AM, mike carey said:

There is an active and interesting thread in the Personal Finance forum that started out asking about issues involved in retiring to Vietnam on $US1,000 a month. The thread has ranged widely to discuss moving to lower cost countries to enjoy a better lifestyle on a first world retirement income, dealing with issues like health care in an unfamiliar system, living abroad part time and the difficulties (or reluctance) to learn the local language. The last applies to retired people moving to lower cost countries and workers from them living in rich countries.

That thread has strayed from the personal finance involved (and also from just Vietnam although many observations are universal), and needs to return to the financial issues. This is a place to continue the wider conversation. Have fun, and plan away.  I think I feel a visit to CDMX coming on, although not permanently and not by train and bus from a US border city this time.

Just wanted to mention that Mexico is not cheap anymore. It became popular, as it has become more stable, and it's also known for being welcoming and friendly. Unfortunately, now there are areas that are as expensive as USA and Canada, and the requirements for residency have become more demanding. It's still cheaper than many areas in USA, but it's getting a little too crowded with American and Canadian ex-pats.

Personally I have considered Mexico and Spain (I figure, if life is going to be expensive, then I can choose the expensive country I want to live in too).

One has to consider the political stability of countries in order to make a decision of where to live. That's (IMO) as necessary to consider as it is the economy, otherwise, I could just decide to go live in Haiti since it's dirt cheap. My own level of comfort with the socio-political climate in the country where I live and the country where I plan to retire to is important to cosider. That doesn't mean that I am pushing any politics or political anything onto others; that only means that it's one of the factors to consider to determine quality of life. For that, I don't need research, studies, propaganda, nor to convince anyone for me to determine that I am (or not) comfortable with the socio-political climate or how the governemtn is functioning in the country where I live in. It's irresponsible not to think about that.

[cany10011]

On 6/5/2024 at 7:48 PM, Charlie said:

I was born and raised in the US and have lived here for the majority of my life, but I also studied, lived and worked in other countries when I was younger. Naturally, when I retired, I gave some thought to retiring abroad. However, retiring to one of the countries I had lived in previously didn't make financial sense, because the living conditions were not any cheaper than one could find in the US. The places that might make financial sense were places where I didn't speak the language (a major consideration), and where I was not sure of what kind of medical care I could expect. Being a healthy 65 year old foreigner with plenty of money can be very exciting in a new country; being an elderly (e.g., over 75) foreigner with no family in a country where one isn't fluent in the language, doesn't know the way around local bureaucracies even after living there for several years, and may no longer have dependable health, is no fun at all.  When my partner, who loved European travel, said he wanted us to retire to London (where he worked as a young man) so we could be close to places on the continent which we could visit frequently, I nixed the idea, and I'm glad I did. Now he is physically unable to travel at all, and we would have been stuck far from family and old friends, in a place where we were simply a couple of old queens who didn't even qualify for the social assistance we could expect in the US. I think I have mentioned here before the case of an English friend of mine, a sophisticated schoolmaster, who retired to a small town in Portugal, because he thought he could live there more comfortably on his limited retirement income than he could at home in England. After ten years there, he would phone me, practically sobbing, about how miserably isolated he felt there. I have no regrets about retiring to California, which is quite exotic enough for me.

Just picking up this thread from an earlier link and wanted to chime in as my friend recently got his golden visa from Portugal. He is an outgoing friendly guy, but didn't happen to  really gel with any groups there unfortunately. He lived there for 2 years and decided it was not for him. So he's left his apartment empty and returned to NYC where he lives about 9 months of rht year and elsewher in Asia for the balance. 

[cany10011]

On 7/9/2024 at 4:37 PM, José Soplanucas said:

Motivations seem economic. 

Why Some Americans Are Renouncing Their Citizenship And Moving Abroad

WWW.FORBES.COM

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Renunciations of U.S. citizenship is now at an all time high. The process is complex and requires careful planning and execution. But it can be done. Here's...

Do you have any data to support your claim? Otherwise, it looks like you are carrying on the family tradition by bringing politics to this thread.

 

In discussions with Canadian estate lawyer and cross border accountant along with tax attorney to discuss options for me as I like to return to Toronto but have issues with being a dual US Canadian citizen with looming inheritance issues. It sort of keeps me up at night. 

Edited July 19 by cany10011