My first non-paying client…

[+ José Soplanucas]

On 6/8/2024 at 5:08 PM, Monarchy79 said:

Question, 

If out of all of your bookings, this is the first time you were stiffed out of payment, why would you change your entire business model (imposing upfront payments), based on that singular experience? Have you considered the  potential drop in future bookings as most potential clients do not like paying up front? 
 

 

 

 

I totally agree. Of course, the change in the business model would be just the consequence of what actually shocks me: this has happened only once, and @Tony_tx has apparently lost faith in humanity.

Perhaps it is just the frustration speaking. What happened to you, @Tony_tx is sad and I hope you will not have to experience this again. However, I think you should cool down, think, read carefully this thread where several friends offer you very good advise, and then make a decision about whether or not you should change your business model.

[DFdub]

12 hours ago, NYXboy said:

this is absolutely a definition of rape. If he didn't pay you, he didn't have your consent.   You have been raped.

Consent cannot be retroactively revoked. At the time of the sex, the @**hole had received consent regardless of his abhorrent behavior afterward. RAINN standards for consent at the link provided are consistent that consent was given. I have family and friends that are victims of rape and sexual abuse. The trauma from true violence and absolute lack of consent should not be diminished or equated with this, and personally it offends me to hear it.

@NYXboy  YMMV for this and I respect your right to feel that way, but consider a teen who takes another’s virginity by promising eternal love but breaks up with his lover afterward to move to his next conquest? Is he a rapist who did not actually have consent? Or a man who gets a woman pregnant after promising to marry her if he did, only to disappear? Is he now a rapist, too, due to a broken promise?

@Tony_tx What happened to you was terrible and inexcusable, but it was not rape. What happened to you was outrageous and shameful, but it was not rape. MikeTexas is a piece of $#!t who deserves for a ‘collector’ to show up to settle your account by whatever method needed and the type of client we other clients loathe, but he is not a rapist.

[NYXboy]

1 hour ago, DFdub said:

Consent cannot be retroactively revoked. At the time of the sex, the @**hole had received consent regardless of his abhorrent behavior afterward. RAINN standards for consent at the link provided are consistent that consent was given. I have family and friends that are victims of rape and sexual abuse. The trauma from true violence and absolute lack of consent should not be diminished or equated with this, and personally it offends me to hear it.

@NYXboy  YMMV for this and I respect your right to feel that way, but consider a teen who takes another’s virginity by promising eternal love but breaks up with his lover afterward to move to his next conquest? Is he a rapist who did not actually have consent? Or a man who gets a woman pregnant after promising to marry her if he did, only to disappear? Is he now a rapist, too, due to a broken promise?

@Tony_tx What happened to you was terrible and inexcusable, but it was not rape. What happened to you was outrageous and shameful, but it was not rape. MikeTexas is a piece of $#!t who deserves for a ‘collector’ to show up to settle your account by whatever method needed and the type of client we other clients loathe, but he is not a rapist.

take it from someone legally trained - there are MANY jurisdictions where having sex with a se worker and then not paying them is considered rape.  

for your reading pleasure -

@José Soplanucas since you think I don't know the definition of rape, you should read and learn before you type and say I don't know what I am talking about.

 "In some jurisdictions, courts have found that when a person cons a sex worker – refuses or evades the agreed payment for sex – such acts constitute rape, because consent for the sexual act was obtained fraudulently."

 

'It absolutely should be seen as rape': when sex workers are conned | Australia news | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

Brisbane case reveals divergent ways in which the law treats sex workers who are tricked by customers

 

[DFdub]

9 minutes ago, NYXboy said:

take it from someone legally trained - there are MANY jurisdictions where having sex with a sex worker and then not paying them is considered rape.  

for your reading pleasure 

Interested in the list of jurisdictions.  In this new article, opinions vary. Even the conviction listed included an element of the provider saying no and forcibly preventing provider’s movements/ability to move freely.  Not the same scenario described by @Tony_tx

Fraud does seem more appropriate legal crime given the intent to not fulfill his end of a business transaction - other than the one judge reference in Australia. Still interested in the extensive lists that have been thoroughly vetted.

[NYXboy]

10 minutes ago, DFdub said:

Still interested in the extensive lists that have been thoroughly vetted.

Rape by Fraud: Eluding Washington Rape Statutes

DIGITALCOMMONS.LAW.SEATTLEU.EDU

---

Existing Washington law does not sufficiently safeguard its citizens from “rape by fraud,” an action whereby a...

"In recent years, twelve states have adopted expanded rape by fraud statutory provisions."

Whilst this article critiques the holes in washington states rape laws, feel free to Look the 12 current states with legislation up in your own time. I suggest @José Soplanucas does as well. 

 

 

Rape by Fraud in Penal Code | ConsentAwareness.net

CONSENTAWARENESS.NET

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In the US, where rape happens determines whether a crime has taken place. Legislators of each state...

 

 

 

[BSR]

1 hour ago, NYXboy said:

take it from someone legally trained - there are MANY jurisdictions where having sex with a se worker and then not paying them is considered rape.  

for your reading pleasure -

@José Soplanucas since you think I don't know the definition of rape, you should read and learn before you type and say I don't know what I am talking about.

 "In some jurisdictions, courts have found that when a person cons a sex worker – refuses or evades the agreed payment for sex – such acts constitute rape, because consent for the sexual act was obtained fraudulently."

 

'It absolutely should be seen as rape': when sex workers are conned | Australia news | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

Brisbane case reveals divergent ways in which the law treats sex workers who are tricked by customers

 

I am always a bit freaked out when @José Soplanucas and I agree on an issue, but despite those reservations I'll weigh in here.

You claim that some jurisdictions "consider it rape," but the linked legal abstract gives a very broad definition:  'rape by fraud,' an action whereby a person obtains sexual consent and has sexual intercourse of any type by fraud, deception, misrepresentation, or impersonation.

Depending on the interpretation, any dishonesty -- a guy lying about his income, a guy telling someone he loves them when he doesn’t, a guy who says he has a hotshot job when he's really a grunt -- every little fib under the sun, any BS that cads have spouted since time immemorial retroactively revokes consent and presto! change-o! makes all cases of what was originally consensual sex a Class A felony.

Sorry, but that's not rape.  That's the Cult of Victimhood run amok.  Our overburdened courts need to focus their limited time and resources on legitimate cases of rape, not "your honor, he promised to leave his wife for me!"

It is not my intention here to trivialize what happened to @Tony_tx.  That assh*le manipulated & cheated you, and you have every right to be angry.  But I have to draw a line here because there's a Grand Canyon-sized gap between fraud and rape.

[coriolis888]

22 hours ago, GenerousGent said:

Whatever happened to laying the money on the dresser in plain sight in advance!?!  It doesn't have to be one or the other.  A lot of illegitimate sex workers like to grab and go, and or do very little for 10 min and leave once $ is in their pocket.  Money on the dresser evens the playing field for both.  

 

 

 

It does? 

What is to prevent the escort from grabbing the money that is on the dresser and leaving after grabbing the money?  It all depends on honesty and honesty is not very strong when it comes to escorts.  

[+ APPLE1]

The discussion of whether or not "rape" occurs through "fraud" actually falls under the umbrella of "conditional consent." When it comes to sex and conditional consent, courts are working on sorting out many specifics.

However, people offering legal opinions and potential strategy, as well as contrary opinion and strategy, are a dime a dozen. When goods and services are exchanged for something of value, that is CONTRACT LAW. Until I see a judiciary, and its higher controlling authority rule otherwise, it will always be contract law. I have yet to see a case ruling stand where calling simple sex for money, when no money gets paid, rape.

If I agree to do Only Fans, and I don't get paid what I agreed to, I get to sue for breach of contract, not rape. Just like if I sell 10 trees to a lumber yard, and they come in and cut 20,  I get to sue for breach of contract, not trespassing.

Edited June 11 by APPLE1

[+ APPLE1]

6 hours ago, DFdub said:

consider a teen who takes another’s virginity by promising eternal love but breaks up with his lover afterward to move to his next conquest? Is he a rapist who did not actually have consent? Or a man who gets a woman pregnant after promising to marry her if he did, only to disappear? Is he now a rapist, too, due to a broken promise?

Can you imagine getting a jury panel to convict on that unanimously? Certainly not if I was on that panel.

Edited June 11 by APPLE1

[+ José Soplanucas]

4 hours ago, BSR said:

I am always a bit freaked out when @José Soplanucas and I agree on an issue, but despite those reservations I'll weigh in here.

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[SouthOfTheBorder]

re; “rape”, sending someone to “collect” the unpaid fee & driving 10 hours for an appointment - none of these ideas or actions make sense in context of the simple act of hiring a provider 

once you’ve been scammed by either provider or client - chalk it up to a learning experience & don’t do the same thing again. if you lost $200-$400 then you got off easy

the vast majority of appointments & transactions happen without any trouble at all.  don’t make it complicated unless you want a complicated situation 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

3 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

re; “rape”, sending someone to “collect” the unpaid fee & driving 10 hours for an appointment - none of these ideas or actions make sense in context of the simple act of hiring a provider 

once you’ve been scammed by either provider or client - chalk it up to a learning experience & don’t do the same thing again. if you lost $200-$400 then you got off easy

the vast majority of appointments & transactions happen without any trouble at all.  don’t make it complicated unless you want a complicated situation 

I don’t necessarily think the OP asking for funds upfront is complicated, moreso that he just wants to do things differently to where he doesn’t again have to worry: “Is this guy going to walk?” Nothing complicated about that at all. Same thing when you go to the movies, before entry at a nightclub, or ordering an Uber. All simple concepts: pay upfront. 

What reference proof do you have, to backup your claim that the vast majority of appointments and transactions happen without any trouble at all? Even if it did: it only takes that one experience, just like the poster on here said…For things to go upside down. It’s not the “vast majority” which matters, it’s the “occasional few bad apples”.

[+ nycman]

30 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

It’s not the “vast majority” which matters, it’s the “occasional few bad apples”.

Basing your entire business model on a "few bad apples", is an incredibly bad idea.

For the record, I’m not talking to @Jarrod_Uncut, whom I know will disagree and ignore my advice. I’m talking to @Tony_tx, for whom I have a great deal of sympathy. We’ve all been there. Chalk it up as a learning lesson. Think about ways you can avoid a similar situation, without harming your overall business plan.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

a business plan is just that - and should be altered when necessary.  not wise to make wholesale adjustments tho based on one unfortunate event.  

the easiest way to succeed at anything is look at what very successful people do in that field & copy them.  don’t reinvent the wheel or try to change an entire industry or culture bc it won’t happen.  

in this business, a demand for money upon arrival is crass & immediately sets up the appointment awkwardly.  I would not call that person again.  the custom is payment at the end & I expect providers to be able to screen enough that this should not be an issue.  that said, I usually offer payment at the beginning w a new provider so they don’t have to worry about it

if a provider is constantly experiencing problematic clients & situations , then it would be helpful to look at the way the services are being advertised because it’s not happening randomly. 

Edited June 11 by SouthOfTheBorder

[DGHou]

I have been hiring providers for well over 30 years.  (since barely out of my teens!  LOL  JK) 

But since my late 20's. I've never asked for a discount.  I have said No when I thought the rate was too high and not competitive.  I have had providers offer to lower their price.  I have always made it clear when they've offered that I was not trying to get a lower  rate.  It's a business and they can charge what they want.  Their rate is just too high for me.  Period.

Sometimes they insist that they are fine with a lower rate and we see each other. It may be when finances are tighter than usual for them.  When we do meet I usually tip.  I hope  they know the tip is because I appreciate them accommodating me and not because it means I would have paid their original, higher rate.

I have found that a provider needs to be competitive with rates.  In my years of hiring I have never met a provider who is worth 2-3 times the going rate.  That just usually means they are full of themselves.  If the experience is disappointing for me I obviously pay their rate.  If it's a stellar experience for me and they send me over the moon I tip generously and hire them again.

[DFdub]

16 hours ago, NYXboy said:

Whilst this article critiques the holes in washington states rape laws, feel free to Look the 12 current states with legislation up in your own time. I suggest @José Soplanucas does as well. 

Thanks!  Both interesting reads. Both full of "should" and "could" references of the authors' opinions, but no actual laws that include this scenario - not even in the much heralded 12 states.

Appreciate the references to support that this is not included under current laws. Interesting dialogue about whether it should be or not.

[Ali Gator]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:28 AM, jmichaeliii said:

Despite our friendliness toward each other I fully get this is his business and he expects to get paid.  

The same with me. There are a few I've become friendly with - one is from out of town, saves me for his last appointment and at the end of the appointment (usually around 8 pm) I take him out to dinner (a particular family-owned Italian restaurant in my area he really enjoys). Aside from the services he provides, I really enjoy his company and the conversations we have - we love catching up with each other.

 

That said, after the appointment, and before we head to the shower to 'clean up', I always hand him his fee in cash. He says 'thank you' and puts it aside in his suitcase. I tell him he has to count it in front of me - it's a business deal, and with any business, I expect him to count what I gave him to make sure it's correct. He seems reluctant to do it, always says "I trust you" and and I insist he count it right then and there. Once that is over, we head to the shower and then to dinner. 

I do the same with every provider I hire - whether I'm a repeat client or not, I insist they count the money in front of me. It's business. 

[BSR]

14 minutes ago, Ali Gator said:

I do the same with every provider I hire - whether I'm a repeat client or not, I insist they count the money in front of me. It's business. 

Nobody here (I hope) gets offended when a cashier counts the bills you handed over.  So why is it considered rude or inappropriate for an escort to do the same?

[Ali Gator]

9 minutes ago, BSR said:

Nobody here (I hope) gets offended when a cashier counts the bills you handed over.  So why is it considered rude or inappropriate for an escort to do the same?

Here's a story to share...

When I owned my gift store, I had a 'regular' who was very high-maintenance. She usually paid in credit card, but on this particular occasion she paid with three $100 bills. Aside from my employee, we were the only ones in the store.  As with all customers paying with big bills - whether they were first-timers or regulars - I pulled out my 'special pen' and drew a line across the bill to make sure these bills weren't counterfeit.  

This woman had a hissy fit. She told me I insulted her, she was one of my 'best customers', and how dare I check her money as though she was 'a common criminal'. On and on and on...

When she finally stopped, I calmly explained to her:

"When I go to my bank, the bank I've been doing business with for twenty years, and I go to the business teller window - the same teller who has taken my deposit from me each day for twenty years - she will take out a similar pen and do the same thing in front of me. I'm not going to tell her she insulted me, I'm not going to tell her I'm her best customer, and I'm not going to tell her she treated me like 'a common criminal'.  She has a job to do, and so do I - neither of us know where the money originated."

She was dumbfounded - and that shut her up. Unfortunately, she continued coming in my store and being a pain in the ass.   

[+ APPLE1]

1 hour ago, Ali Gator said:

Here's a story to share...

When I owned my gift store, I had a 'regular' who was very high-maintenance. She usually paid in credit card, but on this particular occasion she paid with three $100 bills. Aside from my employee, we were the only ones in the store.  As with all customers paying with big bills - whether they were first-timers or regulars - I pulled out my 'special pen' and drew a line across the bill to make sure these bills weren't counterfeit.  

This woman had a hissy fit. She told me I insulted her, she was one of my 'best customers', and how dare I check her money as though she was 'a common criminal'. On and on and on...

When she finally stopped, I calmly explained to her:

"When I go to my bank, the bank I've been doing business with for twenty years, and I go to the business teller window - the same teller who has taken my deposit from me each day for twenty years - she will take out a similar pen and do the same thing in front of me. I'm not going to tell her she insulted me, I'm not going to tell her I'm her best customer, and I'm not going to tell her she treated me like 'a common criminal'.  She has a job to do, and so do I - neither of us know where the money originated."

She was dumbfounded - and that shut her up. Unfortunately, she continued coming in my store and being a pain in the ass.   

I inadvertently passed a counterfeit bill ONCE at the grocery store, after having recieved that bill from a teller at the credit union in the same strip mall minutes before.

[Ali Gator]

1 hour ago, APPLE1 said:

I inadvertently passed a counterfeit bill ONCE at the grocery store, after having recieved that bill from a teller at the credit union in the same strip mall minutes before.

WOW - what happened ? Did you return the counterfeit bill to them ? 

[+ APPLE1]

2 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

WOW - what happened ? Did you return the counterfeit bill to them ? 

It was all very civilized. The police were called but didn't show up. They told the store to call the secret service. The grocery store manager, myself, and the credit union manager did a conference call with the secret service.

I gave the store a different $20. The Secret Service had taken down my name and information and allowed me to walk the $20 back to the credit union. The credit union gave me a different $20, and before I left the credit union, one of the employees had returned from the Staples in the strip mall with bag of counterfeit markers, and they checked the rest of the $20s they had given me thst morning before I left.

[coriolis888]

8 hours ago, Ali Gator said:

 

 

I tell him he has to count it in front of me - it's a business deal, and with any business, I expect him to count what I gave him to make sure it's correct. He seems reluctant to do it, always says "I trust you" and and I insist he count it right then and there. Once that is over, we head to the shower and then to dinner. 

 

When you go to dinner together, does he expect you to pay the dinner PLUS another hour of his time for company? 

I had that stunt pulled on me in the past.  I do not take escorts to dinner anymore.  

[Ali Gator]

5 hours ago, coriolis888 said:

When you go to dinner together, does he expect you to pay the dinner PLUS another hour of his time for company? 

I had that stunt pulled on me in the past.  I do not take escorts to dinner anymore.  

No - never. I treat him to dinner (which is equal to a generous tip for his services) but he never charges me for his company. I would stop that immediately. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

On 6/12/2024 at 5:07 PM, BSR said:

Nobody here (I hope) gets offended when a cashier counts the bills you handed over.  So why is it considered rude or inappropriate for an escort to do the same?

If they count it before the session and pocket it, it means you're in for a lousy session. n=4, 1.0 correlation.