Entrapment risks

[HotelFun]

What measures or mitigations should clients take if they are concerned about providers potentially working undercover to entrap them? 

Is this is a genuine risk? 

Thinking along the lines of law enforcement cutting a deal with providers if they work with them to entrap clients. 

Keen to hear the thoughts of this forum

[+ Pensant]

If that ever happens, I’d assume it’s quite rare. 

[Johnrom]

Agreed. Quite rare. I also believe  the focus of law enforcement would be more on the providers,  not on clients. 

[maninsoma]

When law enforcement uses entrapment, they don't use actual providers to do so.  Can you imagine an escort sometimes offering legitimate service to clients and then occasionally he's just helping the cops with surprise busts?  There's no way that escort could ever be successful.  The only instance I'm aware of this happening was in an episode of South Park (to hilarious effect).

Is there a risk of entrapment?  I guess.  We don't hear about it much, so I assume the risk is low in most jurisdictions.  If you live somewhere where the police have time on their hands and the inclination to do this, then don't hire.

[+ DrownedBoy]

Also, recent stings targeting gay men generally happen in conservative areas of the U.S. (like the Georgia raid, where men were accused of being a john for offering joint paper to their hookups).

It's been said many times here - especially this year, I'd be careful in a lot of states.

[HotelFun]

Any practical tips to mitigate the risk - such as not paying upfront, method of payment (cash vs electronic), using a different number etc etc?

[Colton]

31 minutes ago, HotelFun said:

Any practical tips to mitigate the risk - such as not paying upfront, method of payment (cash vs electronic), using a different number etc etc?

Someone once told me that if you pay cash when the provider arrives (or at least set the cash out), then it’s clear you are paying for time and not services because the amount isn’t dependent on services.  Note I only did this my first time and not any more.  

if you are worried about privacy, then cash and a private number make a lot of sense.  Remember, a provider’s phone would probably be searched if the feds were looking for something.  

[+ DrownedBoy]

46 minutes ago, HotelFun said:

Any practical tips to mitigate the risk - such as not paying upfront, method of payment (cash vs electronic), using a different number etc etc?

 If a provider keeps trying to get you to say something along the lines of 'are you paying for sex,' stop.

A tip someone else mentioned, and I've used successfully - when they first arrive, try and get a large French kiss before they even say anything. Cops won't do that.

[Jamie21]

35 minutes ago, DrownedBoy said:

A tip someone else mentioned, and I've used successfully - when they first arrive, try and get a large French kiss before they even say anything. Cops won't do that.

Interestingly although this seems a reasonable assumption there are instances where undercover cops have gone a lot further than a French kiss. The example is undercover cops in the UK who were infiltrating militant animal rights groups and other such organisations. In those instances the police infiltrated these groups over many years and even had relationships and children with women in the group. Quite unbelievable the extent to which they went to remain undercover. 

Of course sex work is legal in the UK (within certain parameters) so there’s no risk of being caught in a sting here in that respect. Buy without worry! But if you’re thinking of getting involved with subversive activities then beware because the cops are clearly very dedicated. 
 

[56harrisond]

A near foolproof method is to only hire from well-reviewed providers on CoM.

[+ DrownedBoy]

1 hour ago, Jamie21 said:

In those instances the police infiltrated these groups over many years and even had relationships and children with women in the group.
 

Well I guess this one old piece of sex work wisdom is gone:

"If you can name the color of the cop's underwear, they have to drop the charges." 😄

[HotelFun]

8 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

Of course sex work is legal in the UK

Is it? Within what parameters? 

[wanderlust307]

3 minutes ago, HotelFun said:

Is it? Within what parameters? 

It's legal in most (all?) countries in Europe.

[Jamie21]

2 hours ago, HotelFun said:

Is it? Within what parameters? 

Yes, you can’t solicit on the street or run a brothel for example and advertising it is very restricted but there’s no general law against selling sexual services. In other European countries it’s even less restrictive, for example Germany where it’s legal to run brothels. The problem is people, mainly women get trafficked to work in the industry and are dreadfully exploited. 

[PhileasFogg]

20 hours ago, Johnrom said:

Agreed. Quite rare. I also believe  the focus of law enforcement would be more on the providers,  not on clients. 

Don’t bet on it.  There’s buyers and sellers.  If you can’t stop the sellers from selling, you scare the crap out of the buyers so the sellers move on.  

But, agreed, it’s quite rare with males.  The focus is on female sex trafficking, for now. 

[wanderlust307]

2 hours ago, PhileasFogg said:

Don’t bet on it.  There’s buyers and sellers.  If you can’t stop the sellers from selling, you scare the crap out of the buyers so the sellers move on.  

But, agreed, it’s quite rare with males.  The focus is on female sex trafficking, for now. 

In Scandinavia they prosecute the client not the escort.

[SirBillybob]

12 minutes ago, wanderlust307 said:

In Scandinavia they prosecute the client not the escort.

Scandinavia must have annexed a vast Nordic area.

[soloyo215]

On 7/27/2024 at 3:30 AM, HotelFun said:

What measures or mitigations should clients take if they are concerned about providers potentially working undercover to entrap them? 

Is this is a genuine risk? 

Thinking along the lines of law enforcement cutting a deal with providers if they work with them to entrap clients. 

Keen to hear the thoughts of this forum

Normally when something like that ocurs is because the police has a specific interest in a specific person or in a scpecific activity by a person or a group of people. Another reason might be politics, some city Mayor or government authority might want to crack down on certain activites as part of his image or platform. The use of a real provider for those purposes might only happen if that provider is in trouble with the law and becomes a CI to the police, which again, might be in the interest of a larger crack down on something else. The police just doesn't have the resources to crack down on providers simply because some activities are against the law.

Look around and try to see where in the scale of priorities crimes committed in this setting might have in comparisson with so many others. A good example of how low of a priority entrapment of clients is, is what's going on in my city. In my city people are getting raped and killed in the subway, an entire neighborhood is full of homeless people walking like zombies out of addictions and related issues. Illegal use of fire arms are out of control, hit-and-run killings in roads are increasing in parts of the city, and that's not to mention white-collar crimes.

From that point of view, it's unlikely that the already limited resources be used for that purpose, unless there is a political agenda behind it, or is part of a larger investigation.

Edited July 28 by soloyo215

[maninsoma]

18 hours ago, 56harrisond said:

A near foolproof method is to only hire from well-reviewed providers on CoM.

Quite honestly, this makes the most sense for someone who is new to hiring who has anxiety about entrapment or even safety concerns (i.e., they accidentally reach out to someone whose intent is just to rob them, not provide any service).

But one thing I've read a number of times here needs to be repeated in this context:  Particularly if you have a lot to lose (you're married to a woman and your spouse doesn't know you are having sex with me, or you have a job where this activity if exposed would cause you to lose your job), then get a phone number used exclusively for this activity and take other precautions to protect your anonymity.  It's amazing to me how many heterosexually married men just operate as if they can do what they want and they won't get caught, and then it all blows up in their face when some escort tries to blackmail them.

[wanderlust307]

1 minute ago, maninsoma said:

Particularly if you have a lot to lose (you're married to a woman and your spouse doesn't know you are having sex with me, or you have a job where this activity if exposed would cause you to lose your job), then get a phone number used exclusively for this activity and take other precautions to protect your anonymity.  It's amazing to me how many heterosexually married men just operate as if they can do what they want and they won't get caught, and then it all blows up in their face when some escort tries to blackmail them.

They deserve it. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

1 hour ago, wanderlust307 said:

They deserve it. 

Maybe.

Going back to entrapment, another factor is that LA feels pressured if people are breaking the law in plain sight. That's why they took down RB. They can't do the same to RM since it's not in America, but if police did decide to go after gay clients, using it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. And that's why this year is dangerous, since there are a lot of bastards looking to score some political points.

[DWnyc]

On 7/27/2024 at 4:17 PM, DrownedBoy said:

arrive, try and get a large French kiss before they even say anything. Cops won't do that.

I’ve heard this type of thing (also showing / playing with dicks) but then wonder if I was a cop and wanted to make a big name for myself I’d want to do whatever it took … wouldn’t I do what an escort would right until I was ready to make the arrest? 
 

 

[DWnyc]

Maybe overkill, maybe not … but one precaution if you’re worried - small cheap secret camera detectors

Given secret cameras now cheap and small and easily available (even though illegal in many jurisdictions to use without disclosure) - they’re around a lot more than one may think. 

some genuine providers likely use them already if hosting.

 

Edited July 29 by DWnyc

[viewing ownly]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:17 PM, DrownedBoy said:

 If a provider keeps trying to get you to say something along the lines of 'are you paying for sex,' stop.

A tip someone else mentioned, and I've used successfully - when they first arrive, try and get a large French kiss before they even say anything. Cops won't do that.

Whenever I'd get a deep French kiss upon entering someone's home, I figured that was THEIR way of making sure I wasn't a sting operation! Only had it happen once, (well, twice, but I initiated it the second time LOL) and it to this day was my favorite appointment ever with anyone. 

I've donated ahead in full in advance only once, and never, ever again. 3 police cars were waiting outside his driveway, and then I pull up from a blind corner into Hell. Who am I? What am I doing there? Where is he? Getting reimbursed was a bitch, but it did eventually happen.

Best advice is to not see someone who is a new advertiser with zero reviews, just to be on the safest side. 

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

They don't want you.

They want us....  Especially in an election year.