struggling to connect / find intimacy

[lseactuary90]

i'm in therapy and a theme came up that i'm struggling to answer and i'm looking for some practical ideas. i'm gay and living in NY and im my 30s.

for context, i've hooked up a tonne over the past decade, in multiple cities, in spades of variety (ages, races, body shapes, positions, venues etc). i've never really had issues having hookups in general but also never really felt a connection (i describe the experience usually as a gym workout). i kinda get why, hookups are inherently transactional, but this is concerning to me especially when i read others forming fwb's and relationships from hookups (or at least repeating). also most of my hookups there is some level of convo, its not just bang and go.

i tried other avenues of trying to form connections e.g. friends first (but then i'm not attracted to them sexually, well tbh, when forming friends this isn't even a criteria in my mind anyway), drinks then sex (so a date, i don't feel more or less connected by drinking with them first), purely dating first (but my dating history is pretty scarce, so probs not the best sample, and not from a lack of trying, and i really have lost interest within the first hour of meeting them for even a repeat convo), sex parties (just to see if a venue change gets me excited), circuit parties (again, just for a change of venue, not expecting a husband from this), sports groups, holidays, kinks (massage, other things) and so on. for me, nothing still has clicked. i've also taken extensive breaks e.g. no hooking up, etc, which didn't help.

sexually, i'm vers (and genuinely enjoy all things), so there is nothing really i hold back on or some internal homophobia or something like that happening. im a nice chill guy and people who meet me are surprised im not taken as i tick all the 'boxes' so to speak (but attraction is subjective, so i don't take this to my head). 

there have been guys who follow up, and if they do, i follow through, but i guess they sense i'm not really into them hence things fizzle and even a repeat feels more like a chore with them vs something i want to do again with them. i feel bad but i also can't force how i feel. so that phrase 'its better when you repeat' seems to be untrue for me (but also probably because they still don't actually care about me vs my body).

the therapist asked me have you ever had 'mindblowing' sex and i said no. most of my encounters are marginally better than getting off myself. and i get why - its always with a random who doesn't really "care" about me. i've not dated someone for long enough or been in a relationship or anything intimate for me to know the difference either.

so yeah, im kinda stuck like where do i go from here? i can continue hooking up but i sometimes feel with each passing hookup, i am just moving further and further away from actually figuring things out for myself. i was also thinking maybe hiring an escort or something who is more pro and can teach me some new things could be a good idea? do i move city?

Edited August 23 by lseactuary90

[+ FrankR]

10 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

i'm in therapy and a theme came up that i'm struggling to answer and i'm looking for some practical ideas. i'm gay and living in NY and im my 30s.

for context, i've hooked up a tonne over the past decade, in multiple cities, in spades of variety (ages, races, body shapes, positions, venues etc). i've never really had issues having hookups in general but also never really felt a connection (i describe the experience usually as a gym workout). i kinda get why, hookups are inherently transactional, but this is concerning to me especially when i read others forming fwb's and relationships from hookups (or at least repeating). also most of my hookups there is some level of convo, its not just bang and go.

i tried other avenues of trying to form connections e.g. friends first (but then i'm not attracted to them sexually, well tbh, when forming friends this isn't even a criteria in my mind anyway), drinks then sex (so a date, i don't feel more or less connected by drinking with them first), purely dating first (but my dating history is pretty scarce, so probs not the best sample, and not from a lack of trying, and i really have lost interest within the first hour of meeting them for even a repeat convo), sex parties (just to see if a venue change gets me excited), circuit parties (again, just for a change of venue, not expecting a husband from this), sports groups, holidays, kinks (massage, other things) and so on. for me, nothing still has clicked. i've also taken extensive breaks e.g. no hooking up, etc, which didn't help.

sexually, i'm vers (and genuinely enjoy all things), so there is nothing really i hold back on or some internal homophobia or something like that happening. im a nice chill guy and people who meet me are surprised im not taken as i tick all the 'boxes' so to speak (but attraction is subjective, so i don't take this to my head). 

there have been guys who follow up, and if they do, i follow through, but i guess they sense i'm not really into them hence things fizzle and even a repeat feels more like a chore with them vs something i want to do again with them. i feel bad but i also can't force how i feel. so that phrase 'its better when you repeat' seems to be untrue for me (but also probably because they still don't actually care about me vs my body).

the therapist asked me have you ever had 'mindblowing' sex and i said no. most of my encounters are marginally better than getting off myself. and i get why - its always with a random who doesn't really "care" about me. i've not dated someone for long enough or been in a relationship or anything intimate for me to know the difference either.

so yeah, im kinda stuck like where do i go from here? i can continue hooking up but i sometimes feel with each passing hookup, i am just moving further and further away from actually figuring things out for myself. i was also thinking maybe hiring an escort or something who is more pro and can teach me some new things could be a good idea? do i move city?

You are taking the right steps - getting to know yourself and speaking to a therapist is a good start. For a relationship to start, progress and mature you need to be open to the idea. Random hookups may be fun, but they are unlikely to lead you there. Be open to more. NYC actually makes is more difficult - so easy to disappear in the crowd here.  Some of the professional providers I have seen, and continue to see are a great blessing and I value them, but not sure that is the long term solution.
 

You sound a little discouraged - keep in mind that male to male relationships were so much more difficult for us older folks - we never had the role models you, the younger generation, have today. My one piece of advice is to engage with the community and find real attachment to it. Join your local gay association or community center. Meet older guys, they can be helpful in navigating life and may even be able to introduce you to guys that are compatible with what you are looking for. 

[lseactuary90]

2 minutes ago, FrankR said:

You are taking the right steps - getting to know yourself and speaking to a therapist is a good start. For a relationship to start, progress and mature you need to be open to the idea. Random hookups may be fun, but they are unlikely to lead you there. Be open to more. NYC actually makes is more difficult - so easy to disappear in the crowd here.  Some of the professional providers I have seen, and continue to see are a great blessing and I value them, but not sure that is the long term solution.
 

You sound a little discouraged - keep in mind that male to male relationships were so much more difficult for us older folks - we never had the role models you, the younger generation, have today. My one piece of advice is to engage with the community and find real attachment to it. Join your local gay association or community center. Meet older guys, they can be helpful in navigating life and may even be able to introduce you to guys that are compatible with what you are looking for. 

I guess I've hit a standstill with therapy though. I'm not sure how much more I can know myself. We have dug heavily into the past and thought patterns and nothing is really coming up.

I have always been open to more. Hence I follow up / follow through but then there are various issues (which everyone goes through) e.g. flaking, fizzling, visiting, etc. 

My idea was if I can figure out what *really* sets me off, then I can go find that, otherwise I'm kinda just shooting in the dark all the time? The escort path wasn't a long term solution, I'm just trying to make active steps rather than just complain lol. 

I'm discouraged because I'm just not finding the connection I would have hoped would have come my way by now (even if it didn't last). I have joined various things to build community, made friends, etc but they have not resulted in much beyond a general acquaintance type of thing. 

[j r]

Hey. Just want to say you are not the only one to feel this way and some people just need longer than others for things to click.  I’m late 40s and with someone now, but I was in a similar position in my 30s. Even with the person I am with now, the sexual chemistry was not the thing that lasted. We were very hot together when we met but it wasn’t the basis of our attraction to one another. We genuinely like each other’s company and that has persisted even when the sex has gone up and down. Don’t know if this helps at all, but maybe try not to worry about it so much like a problem to solve? You sound like a good guy. I wish you happiness. 

[caramelsub]

I’m in a similar situation. I see a therapist as well. She actually thinks I have a sex addiction. Since I hire for sex and watch porn almost daily. She thinks that I am self medicating with “high risk sexual activities”, because of past emotional trauma or loneliness. She could be right. I definitely have issues with intimacy and relationships. I don’t know what true intimacy feels like. 

[lseactuary90]

4 hours ago, j r said:

Hey. Just want to say you are not the only one to feel this way and some people just need longer than others for things to click.  I’m late 40s and with someone now, but I was in a similar position in my 30s. Even with the person I am with now, the sexual chemistry was not the thing that lasted. We were very hot together when we met but it wasn’t the basis of our attraction to one another. We genuinely like each other’s company and that has persisted even when the sex has gone up and down. Don’t know if this helps at all, but maybe try not to worry about it so much like a problem to solve? You sound like a good guy. I wish you happiness. 

Its not a worry per say. My personality is such that I like to try new things and not moan (despite the thread haha). My thinking process is what can I actively do to learn more about myself? It doesn't have to be just sexual, it could be anything that can help me. Just hooking up isn't really "helping" if its always the same outcome, you know? 

What you shared makes sense hence I never judge on the sex (which is more or less the same tbh) but if I enjoyed the person's company, but it doesn't really go further in 99% of cases.

[lseactuary90]

3 hours ago, caramelsub said:

I’m in a similar situation. I see a therapist as well. She actually thinks I have a sex addiction. Since I hire for sex and watch porn almost daily. She thinks that I am self medicating with “high risk sexual activities”, because of past emotional trauma or loneliness. She could be right. I definitely have issues with intimacy and relationships. I don’t know what true intimacy feels like. 

I went to therapy actually for this issue, and was told (by 2 different therapists) I don't have sex addiction (as I was also able to come off apps entirely and not hookup for months and had no issues). I also only hookup if I like the person, not to just get off, I would rather satisfy myself then. The issue is nothing really progresses for me to feel more but some of this is kinda out of my control also. It takes 2 to want to connect... 

Edited August 24 by lseactuary90

[BuffaloKyle]

3 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

I went to therapy actually for this issue, and was told (by 2 different therapists) I don't have sex addiction (as I was also able to come off apps entirely and not hookup for months and had no issues). I also only hookup if I like the person, not to just get off, I would rather satisfy myself then. The issue is nothing really progresses for me to feel more but some of this is kinda out of my control also. It takes 2 to want to connect... 

I have seen counselors on and off. After talking to counselors about addictions you really can't be addicted to sex or porn. You're not going to have any withdrawal symptoms from not having sex or not watching porn. Just my opinion.

[lseactuary90]

Just now, BuffaloKyle said:

I have seen counselors on and off. After talking to counselors about addictions you really can't be addicted to sex or porn. You're not going to have any withdrawal symptoms from not having sex or not watching porn. Just my opinion.

Thats what I thought but sex / porn addiction is a real thing apparently. I think they were more assessing is my mindset / approach etc healthy or not. 

[BuffaloKyle]

Just now, lseactuary90 said:

Thats what I thought but sex / porn addiction is a real thing apparently. I think they were more assessing is my mindset / approach etc healthy or not. 

The one counselor I spoke to said he would say it's more a craving or obsession. He basically said if I lock you in a prison cell for a week with no porn or sex what's going to happen to you. Obviously nothing.

[+ purplekow]

Withdrawal from sex addiction or porn addiction or gambling addiction is not a physical withdrawal, it is a mental withdrawal.  Thoughts of your desire persist, depression at not having access to it., longing for it interrupting your life in other ways.  So, unlike, drugs and alcohol, the withdrawal is not a physical response as you pointed out.  

When i was in my thirties, I expected to live the rest of my life alone.  I had never had a long term relationship and I was clumsy at interactions which may have led to an ongoing relationship.  A lot of it was fear of being hurt and perhaps insecurity in my ability to make a good decision.  When I confronted those ideas, they did not correspond to the other areas of my life and it became clear to me that I needed to stop pressing myself and to relax and let those relationships develop naturally.  When I stopped looking I found the love of my life and I am sure if we had met when I was younger, I would have walked right by the best person ever to come into my life.  So relax, gain some maturity in dealing with feelings and let life come to you.  Be open to the idea of love without having it be the focus.  You have met a lot of men for sex, now try meeting them just to get to know them without trying to shoe horn it into a particular shape.   Good luck, once your are not looking, once the desperation passes and you are truly relaxed in being you, you will become more attractive to others and they will be looking for you.   

[pubic_assistance]

7 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

do i move city?

NYC is a giant candy store. There's people from everywhere here. Moving isn't likely going to solve your problem. 

Maybe you're looking in the wrong places ? Hook up sites are for hooking up. Dating sites for dating. Sexually active people sometimes forget about "normal" ways to meet people. 

You said you're not sexually attracted after a friend's-first relationship. Maybe start looking at THAT. Why is a "friend" sexually uninteresting ? What is in that sexual connection that isn't satisfied when someone is already there with you ? Are you expecting too much up front ? Looking to be swept off your feet romantically and sexually ?

As we mature we realize that's not always going to be our destiny...so we settle for what works and makes adjustments in life to keep it working. Hollywood often fills us with unrealistic goals in romance. 

Edited August 24 by pubic_assistance
Grammar

[liubit]

2 hours ago, purplekow said:

Be open to the idea of love without having it be the focus.

This is excellent advice, @lseactuary90. Just like for @purplekow, the love of my life bumped into me in my very early 40s, when I was really not expecting it. We have been together now for 20+ years…and counting. 

[lseactuary90]

2 hours ago, purplekow said:

Withdrawal from sex addiction or porn addiction or gambling addiction is not a physical withdrawal, it is a mental withdrawal.  Thoughts of your desire persist, depression at not having access to it., longing for it interrupting your life in other ways.  So, unlike, drugs and alcohol, the withdrawal is not a physical response as you pointed out.  

When i was in my thirties, I expected to live the rest of my life alone.  I had never had a long term relationship and I was clumsy at interactions which may have led to an ongoing relationship.  A lot of it was fear of being hurt and perhaps insecurity in my ability to make a good decision.  When I confronted those ideas, they did not correspond to the other areas of my life and it became clear to me that I needed to stop pressing myself and to relax and let those relationships develop naturally.  When I stopped looking I found the love of my life and I am sure if we had met when I was younger, I would have walked right by the best person ever to come into my life.  So relax, gain some maturity in dealing with feelings and let life come to you.  Be open to the idea of love without having it be the focus.  You have met a lot of men for sex, now try meeting them just to get to know them without trying to shoe horn it into a particular shape.   Good luck, once your are not looking, once the desperation passes and you are truly relaxed in being you, you will become more attractive to others and they will be looking for you.   

FWIW I don't watch porn (max like 1-2 x a year) as I either get the real thing or can get myself off lol. 

I guess I'm very confused as I came out years ago, was accepted, and ready for 'more' back then too. I thought if I just hookup and enjoy myself things would develop (so I would say I was extremely relaxed for several years). As I reflect back I realise this was not the case. I don't think I've ever looked for the "love of my life" because I don't think this is possible. But certainly hookups only are not going to help either if they don't progress in any way? I have tried to get to know the men via sex, just for a repeat or even simply to just know them out of curiosity, and still its all just flakes and falling off the cliff. This is why I'm trying to think of new ways I can try and help myself 'get there' because I'm only getting older and not really experiencing 'more' at all. So while I think your advice is great on paper, I seem to be proof it doesn't actually work? 

[lseactuary90]

6 minutes ago, liubit said:

This is excellent advice, @lseactuary90. Just like for @purplekow, the love of my life bumped into me in my very early 40s, when I was really not expecting it. We have been together now for 20+ years…and counting. 

The focus *isn't* finding love, but a connection. For example, you can have a 3 month connected experience with someone and they can leave for work or something. They may not be the love of your life, but a nice memory. I'm not getting there.

[lseactuary90]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

NYC is a giant candy store. There's people from everywhere here. Moving isn't likely going to solve your problem. 

Maybe you're looking in the wrong places ? Hook up sites are for hooking up. Dating sites for dating. Sexually active people sometimes forget about "normal" ways to meet people. 

You said you're not sexually attracted after a friend's-first relationship. Maybe start looking at THAT. Why is a "friend" sexually uninteresting ? What is in that sexual connection that isn't satisfied when someone is already there with you ? Are you expecting too much up front ? Looking to be swept off your feet romantically and sexually ?

As we mature we realize that's not always going to be our destiny...so we settle for what works and makes adjustments in life to keep it working. Hollywood often fills us with unrealistic goals in romance. 

So there some things to unpack here.

Given NYC is a giant candy store, don't you have a lower chance of finding someone, because everyone is always looking for the next best thing? Everyone I know here complains about the flakiness, cliquiness and superficiality of people. 

I've spread a wide net. For hookups I use a hookup app like Grindr. For dating I use Hinge, Tinder etc. The issue is guys just want to hookup with me (literally the same dude will match me on Tinder, but follow up on Grindr mainly, and despite tagging relationship etc will only want to hookup with me). Its a constant struggle I faced and my therapists have said its because of systemic racism. I'm not sure what to believe. I do find I'm also doing most of the work e.g. messaging first, following up etc. I almost never get 'chased' even by guys who are objectively 'less attractive' or 'offer less' than me (not my words, my friends and even therapists have said this) which is very demotivating (because I fit the tall, handsome, muscled, rugged jock profile, which is smart too, so I'm really confused how literally no one is into that and why my skin color seems to take precedence for dating). I guess the idea was 'be who you want to date' but I struggle to even find that lol.

When I 'hybrid' it e.g. lets have a drink and then hookup, its still very non-committal, with a 98% flake rate so far (in 2 years). The few first dates (no sex, sample size <10) I did have in NY all were okay but I was not physically or mentally attracted to them in any way (and I assume that was reciprocal due to a lack of follow up). 

So I'm reduced to hooking up to meet gay men as a way of meeting someone new. I'm not looking to get swept off my feet (infact, i never look for a 'spark' as I don't believe in this concept). I'm just looking for some basic human decency e.g. a reply to a follow up, some level of engagement and follow through, etc but even this is hard to find. 

I enjoy most of my hookups, but I can't say I have been 'mindblown' to the point that I desperately wanted to see the person again the next day or remember them fondly. That doesn't mean the sex was bad. The comparison to a gym workout was a positive - I would rather workout in the gym for example than do nothing. but I'm not dying to run back to the gym the day after either as its just the 'same' exercises again. I was more comparing to others describing how they met their FWB or BF or something, they seem to have these 'connection' moments, something I am just not experiencing. 

The gay friends I have are a) a very different face + body type to what I find attractive b) i just don't have any sexual or romantic or otherwise feelings for these specific friends. I have tried making friends (genuinely friends first) with guys I find physically attractive (tbh face > body for me) but its not reciprocated / I'm not feeling any interest on their side beyond a casual chat online.

Edited August 24 by lseactuary90

[pubic_assistance]

19 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

Everyone I know here complains about the flakiness, cliquiness and superficiality of people. 

Are all your friends from LA ?

[pubic_assistance]

19 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

Its a constant struggle I faced and my therapists have said its because of systemic racism. 

Ok. 

Let's look at THAT.

What feels like systemic racism about your dating history ? 🤔

There are definitely people who fetishize ethnic groups with little interest in the challenges of crossing the aisle to learn about other people's culture in a relationship.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

20 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

Its a constant struggle I faced and my therapists have said its because of systemic racism.

Find a new therapist.  If you believe you are victim, you will always be a victim.

20 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

For hookups I use a hookup app like Grindr. For dating I use Hinge, Tinder etc.

I have the best success going to physical places to find someone else there with similar interests.  For me, that's going to a piano bar on Showtune night, or taking a cooking class, or going to the library and see who's checking out the same types of books to read as I am.

20 hours ago, lseactuary90 said:

When I 'hybrid' it e.g. lets have a drink and then hookup, its still very non-committal, with a 98% flake rate so far (in 2 years).

When I meet someone for drinks and I find that I am interested in them, I tell them I like them too much to have sex with them on the first date, and then ask them out for 2nd date right then.  I only "hookup" with someone that I've just met if I never intend to see them again.  I may be a slut, but I don't need to behave like one with someone I like.

Edited August 25 by Vegas_Millennial
Capitalization. Be sure to capitalize each new sentence for clarity.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

35 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Are all your friends from LA ?

I found the men in Louisiana to be very friendly.  California men, on the other hand, are another story

[lseactuary90]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Are all your friends from LA ?

Nope, I only have NY friends (or London/Europe ones). Actually I do have 1 single LA friend, but he is happy single. 

[lseactuary90]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Ok. 

Let's look at THAT.

What feels like systemic racism about your dating history ? 🤔

There are definitely people who fetishize ethnic groups with little interest in the challenges of crossing the aisle to learn about other people's culture in a relationship.

The fact that the same dude will hookup with me but not date me. And the fact that this seems to be recurring theme. 

That said, I find it hard to believe this is the only reason. But as I've been speaking to more poc's it does seem like a legitimate reason.

[lseactuary90]

43 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Find a new therapist.  If you believe you are victim, you will always be a victim.

I have the best success going to physical places to find someone else there with similar interests.  For me, that's going to a piano bar on Showtune night, or taking a cooking class, or going to the library and see who's checking out the same types of books to read as I am.

When I meet someone for drinks and I find that I am interested in them, I tell them I like them too much to have sex with them on the first date, and then ask them out for 2nd date right then.  I only "hookup" with someone that I've just met if I never intend to see them again.  I may be a slut, but I don't need to behave like one with someone I like.

This is my 3rd therapist in NY. I'm not saying I'm the victim, I'm legitimately trying to find solutions.

I agree that physical places with other similar interests will help which has always been my focus. But there needs to be someone available too. For example, I love cooking and have gone to many cooking classes - but they are full of couples or much older people only. Similarly when I joined LGBT sports groups, the people who 'stayed' already were in relationships, or similar. I did make some friends though.

Sure, and I assumed this was normal, but even getting a first date is so rare for me. 

[SirBillybob]

OP, it seems that nobody has added any new suggestion that you hadn’t already considered or that even the most basically skilled therapist wouldn’t have already covered. In fact, your responses may represent a parallel to the core dynamics : as if that’s sweet of you and I can engage with any input, you add politely, but that’s not the one key idea that could help yet I appreciate it and all but still a mismatch etc.

I am not suggesting contrarianism but simply lack of fit of opinion, as mine might also be inadequate. 

I have tried to extract your central inquiry about your potential. I think it may be whether limerence is possible for you, the state of ‘vapours’ for want of a better term, a pronounced activation of desire for a specific person that persists long enough to build substantial sustainable multidimensional connectivity when the initial but superficial spark naturally fades and morphs into meaningful BF territory or more.

You insinuated, though I cannot be sure, that nobody evocative of limerence in you has yet to be subject to its activation in them by you. So it appears that you have an idiosyncratic lack of inclination to limerence (I wasn’t sure whether in principle you are cynical about this human characteristic or pessimistic based on experience to date) or that the two it takes to tango has yet to occur.

Essentially, then, have you been excited about any one fellow that did not reciprocate? Then it’s more a matter of kissing more frogs.

Alternatively, you may not have the temperament for a lasting romantic connection and the additive value of sequential encounters may be the model you are working with and could be meaningful in its own way if not the ideal.

Edited August 25 by SirBillybob

[pubic_assistance]

12 minutes ago, lseactuary90 said:

I've been speaking to more poc's it does seem like a legitimate reason.

Is this a problem for P.o.c. dating white men or other P.o.c. ?