For Whom the Bell Tolls

[Will]

Today's news reports on the investigation into the murder of (former) Fr. Geoghan. He was confined to the same prison section with a young man who is serving a life sentence for the violent murder, several years ago, of a gay man. What's more, the man was known in the prison population to be violent regarding gay prisoners. The murderer has already told authorities that he had been planning Geoghan's murder for a month; it required makeshift tools for blocking Geoghan's cell door and specially stretched socks and underwear for tying Geoghan's hands and strangling him. It's no surprise that investigators wonder why Geoghan was in the same section with this guy and why he seems to have been able to enter Geoghan's cell with ease.

 

This was the second prison for Geoghan. In the first, guards as well as other prisoners urinated and defecated in his cell, spat on him and his food, and subjected him to other humiliations.

 

Some might say that he got what was coming to him. But before leaping up and down with glee, it's important to note that Geoghan was murdered because he molested *boys,* not because he molested *children,* i.e., boys and girls (or just girls). Think what one may about what pedophile priests deserve, but stop to consider that this Geoghan-in-prison business, well before his murder, is about violence against gay men, not against straight men, who molest children. Would Jeffrey Dahmer have been bludgeoned to death if he'd snacked on women rather than men?

[Doug69]

>Some might say that he got what was coming to him. But before

>leaping up and down with glee, it's important to note that

>Geoghan was murdered because he molested *boys,* not because

>he molested *children,* i.e., boys and girls (or just girls).

>Think what one may about what pedophile priests deserve, but

>stop to consider that this Geoghan-in-prison business, well

>before his murder, is about violence against gay men, not

>against straight men, who molest children. Would Jeffrey

>Dahmer have been bludgeoned to death if he'd snacked on women

>rather than men?

 

It's really outrageous for you to try to turn a child molester into some martyr for gay rights. When I talk about "gay rights," I am certainly not advocating better or fairer or more equal treatment for child molesters, but apparently, some do believe that such "principles" are what the movement for gay equality is about.

 

I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but the fact is that all child molesters -- whether they molest boys or girls -- are considered to be targets for violence in the prison population. You suggest that only those molesters who abuse boys rather than girls are the targets for such retribution. Other than your desire to exploit this issue to promote your political agenda, on what do you base this false assertion? Anything at all?

[JamesK840]

While the mention of amputation from society in another thread is a tempting position to take, this is supposed to be justice, not revenge. So I think it's deplorable that generally non-violent offenders get locked up in 'supermax' with everybody else, and that the idea of rehabilitation is now completely gone from our system. Get rid of all the damn little drug cases, provide means of advancement, and keep people until they do, that's what I'd like to see. Instead of randomly letting people out because the jail is too crowded after doing nothing but hardening them for their entire time inside.

 

That said, I think you have a point, but may be blaming the wrong parties. It's the so-called news that chooses to make these cases a circus, they put in extra effort when it's 'gay'. For Dahlmer's killer I bet it was for fame more then anything else.

 

I think the same thing would have happened, maybe by a different hand, if Geoghan had been going after little girls, though it wouldn't have been covered as extensively, nor would his death.

[BuckyXTC]

Frankly, I'm surprised John Geoghan survived prison as long as he did. From my own personal experience of having worked inside prison walls for more than ten years (though not as an inmate) it is very difficult, if not nearly impossible for sex offenders of various varieties not to become victims of violence or murder, and especially when their cases have been high profile in the media.

 

For a number of years, the prison industry has become the biggest "growth industry" in this country. Prisons are prime employers for "wannabe" cops, poorly educated "tough guys" and others who have "issues" with power and authority, hence many of those who become prison guards are often poorly suited to the task. I'd be strongly inclined to venture a guess that the guards "looked the other way" while Geoghan was strangled.

 

Just as Geoghan's executioner had a white supremacist/neo-nazi and anti-gay background, that same background is not uncommon for some of the prison guards as well. The nature of Geoghan's crime, as well as the volume, coupled with the fact that prisons are highly violent places where anything deemed "unmasculine" is vulnerable, pretty much insured his early demise.

 

I heartily recommend a book entitled "Prison Masculinities" by Sabo, Kupers, and London. It is a collection of stories and essays by sociologists and inmates about the violent realities of prison life.

[Will]

>It's really outrageous for you to try to turn a child molester

>into some martyr for gay rights.

 

Who said I'm making Geoghan into a martyr for gay rights? So far as I know, he never admitted he was gay, let alone stood up to be counted. A person can hardly be martyred for a cause he doesn't espouse.

 

You may well be right that all sex offenders, regardless of the sex of their victims, are equal targets for violent retribution in prison. If you are indeed right, then I am indeed wrong, and glad of it. I would be much happier to know that a man who molests little girls is just as likely to be strangled to death by another prisoner as a man who molests little boys.

 

Other than your desire to exploit this issue to

>promote your political agenda, on what do you base this false

>assertion? Anything at all?

 

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm "exploiting" this issue to "promote" my "political agenda." I'm not aware that I have an agenda at all, apart from calling attention to the evidence that I saw this morning on the news that Geoghan was murdered under the circumstances I recounted.

 

Maybe men who snack on the corpses of women get bludgeoned to death in the showers just like Jeffrey Dahmer did. The fact that I have never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you want to blame somebody for making a few observations that make you crazy with rage, blame CNN or wherever I saw that stuff. Maybe you're right -- maybe there is a kind of "justice" in the violent crimes of prisoners. But to persuade me of that, you'll have to do better than ranting and raving.

[Doug69]

>Who said I'm making Geoghan into a martyr for gay rights?

 

You said so. Here's what you wrote that I was responding to:

 

<<Think what one may about what pedophile priests deserve, but stop to consider that this Geoghan-in-prison business, well before his murder, is about violence against gay men, not against straight men, who molest children.>>

 

You said that this case is about "violence against gay men." You appear to be protesting what happened to him on the ground that what is really motivating it is homophobia.

 

I could not disagree more, and I think that framing the issue in this way is misleading and dangerous. The fact that an adult male molests boys doesn't make him gay; in fact, most adult males who molest boys are heterosexual, not homosexual, and are attracted to young boys due to their feminine, not masculine, physical traits. A child molester is a child molester, period - there are no such things as "gay child molestetation" and "straight child molestation." Gay men, by definition, are attracted to men, not to children, whether they are boys or girls.

 

As for the rage that child molestation of young boys provokes, I think it's clear that the vast preponderance of the outrage is due to the fact that a child has been abused regardless of the gender of the child. Try being a prisoner convicted of molesting an 8 year-old girl and see how well you fare.

 

To the extent that there is any marginally increased amount of rage from man-boy molestation than from man-girl molestation, I think it's based on the (false) notion that a young boy is more damaged by being violated sexually than a young girl is, and not based on homophobic notions that such acts are "gay".

 

>I don't know where you get the idea that I'm "exploiting" this

>issue to "promote" my "political agenda." I'm not aware that

>I have an agenda at all, apart from calling attention to the

>evidence that I saw this morning on the news that Geoghan was

>murdered under the circumstances I recounted.

 

You are trying to sell this notion that this case reflects homophobia. I think gay men make a huge mistake when they make common cause with child molesters and purport to have some empathy for their plight on the ground that they are suffering from the same sort of "homophobia" which plagues gay men who have sex only with consenting adults. That's what your initial post pretty clearly seemed to do, and it is why - in addition to the fact that it was based on the factually false notion that man-girl molestors don't suffer as much in prison -- that I reacted so strongly.

[axebahia]

>I think gay men make a huge mistake when they

>make common cause with child molesters and purport to have

>some empathy for their plight on the ground that they are

>suffering from the same sort of "homophobia" which plagues gay

>men who have sex only with consenting adults.

 

Yeah, it is so much better to make common cause with neo-Nazi gay bashers, isn't it?

[Doug69]

>Yeah, it is so much better to make common cause with neo-Nazi

>gay bashers, isn't it?

 

I'll let you in on a little secret which, if you concentrate really hard, I'm sure you'll get: it's possible to be against the serial child abuser and also, at the same time, be against his murderer. This isn't like a Presidential election where one has to choose one side or the other to support.

 

And I'll leave uncommented upon the irony of you, of all people, contriving sardonic objection to "making common cause with neo-Nazis," given that every post you write here that isn't about whores does nothing except that.

[Guest Yog-Sothoth]

>Today's news reports on the investigation into the murder of

>(former) Fr. Geoghan. He was confined to the same prison

>section with a young man who is serving a life sentence for

>the violent murder, several years ago, of a gay man. What's

>more, the man was known in the prison population to be violent

>regarding gay prisoners.

 

 

I am in no way sympathic to Mr, Geoghan, but he was given a long-termed sentence and not a death sentence. Massachusetts does not have a death sentence, despite attempts to bring in back.

 

So in no way to I think Mr. Geoghan should have been killed and I am glad there is an investigation underway by the state goverment into finding out how this happened and how it can be avoid in the future.

 

However, as a gay man, what REALLY bothers me is how the Right Wing and Christian fundementalist are repeatedly linking, as they have in the past, to Geoghan as being GAY.

 

Mr. Geoghan is a pedophile. This is NOT the same thing as being homosexual.

 

But the Right repeated attempts to do this and this recent murder has given them a chance once again to do so.

 

I read Usenet newsgroups often and there have since his death many many posts in conservative and Religious Right newsgroups trying to

condemn all gay people for this pedophile's actions. Here in Boston, a conservative radio talkshow host was doing many hours on his death and kept refering to Mr. Geoghan as "GAY-gun". He did this over and over again.

 

Of course, most of these folks minds are closed to the fact that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, that they can be both men and women, and that some pedophiles molest both boys and girls.

 

I do not thing Mr. Geoghan should have died. That is not what the Massachusetts legal system decided as his punishment. Again, I am especially angry at the Right Wing using his death once again to spread their hate and bigiotry against all gay people.

[axebahia]

>And I'll leave uncommented upon the irony of you, of

>all people, contriving sardonic objection to "making common

>cause with neo-Nazis," given that every post you write here

>that isn't about whores does nothing except that.

 

No, there is no contradiction in being against Nazis and their successors and assigns, the Zionists occupiers of Palestine. But as you say, I have demonstrated the links between Israel and apartheid South Africa and Nazi-like chemical and biological WMD programs on other threads so lets just stick to whores here.

[Will]

I had hoped that my reply to your first post would clear the air between us and make it possible to have a civil discussion. I was mistaken.

 

I denied, and still deny, that I am making a case for Geoghan's being a martyr for gay rights. That's different to saying that what killed him was homophobia. My evidence for the latter hypothesis was not based on supposition, but on the fact that the news yesterday morning specifically said that the perpetrator was in prison for murdering a gay man and that he was known in the prison population to hate all gay men. Whether Geoghan was gay or not is beside the point. What's not beside the point is that prison authorities may knowingly have put him in harm's way. As I believe in the Constitution and in the authority of the state, not individuals, to mete out punishment for crimes, in my mind it is close to anarchic for people to take the law into their own hands. That's why we have elected officials, juries, and judges.

 

However, I went on to say that if I am mistaken -- that is, if just as many girl-molesters as boy-molesters are murdered in prison -- I am glad to be wrong. In other words, I do not have a personal or political investment in why Geoghan was killed. If I have a political investment, it's with the circumstances that seem to have made him easy prey for a homophobic murderer.

 

When you accuse me of making common cause with child-molesters, you yourself are making statements that are not founded on anything I have said and are designed simply to strengthen your own position by insulting me. In any case, as I shared these thoughts only with people who frequent this board, I can't imagine what is "dangerous" about anything I said, or even anything that you inferred, incorrectly, from anything I said. We're adults here, after all, and most of us are gay. As for straight men molesting little boys, I'll believe that as soon as I believe that gay men molest little girls.

 

Having been sexually molested myself, I'm hardly likely to look kindly on dirty old men. That doesn't keep me from trying to think about things. Until you can engage in a civil dialogue with me, and can show yourself to be open- and fair-minded, though, I don't think it's a good idea for me to continue this exchange. I've said my peace. So you get to have the last word, if you want it.

[Doug69]

>However, as a gay man, what REALLY bothers me is how the Right

>Wing and Christian fundementalist are repeatedly linking, as

>they have in the past, to Geoghan as being GAY.

 

Unfortunately, many gay men contribute to this problem by strangely prioritizing this case and expressing far more outrage over what happened to this Priest than is typically expressed for other crime victims.

 

Even worse, certain gay men, when vigorously protesting what happened to this child molester, actually go so far as to link the hatred towards him to homophobia - as though hatred of a child molester is of the same genre as homophobia. It isn't only Christian right-wing commentators linking Geoghan to gay men. Many gay men, implicitly and explicitly, are doing the same thing.

 

>Mr. Geoghan is a pedophile. This is NOT the same thing as

>being homosexual.

 

Yes - this is true. The vast majority of man-boy pedophile crimes are perpetrated by heterosexual men, not by homosexual men. And it doesn't make someone a homosexual to be an adult male attracted to a boy - it makes one a pedophile.

 

That's why I don't understand the extra empathy which many gay men seem to have for him. Is what happened to him right? No, of course not. There should be an investigation and prisoners should not be killed in prison. But this case seems to be particularly compelling to many gay men as a vehicle for expressing outrage - not outrage about the child molester, but about his mistreatment.

 

>Again, I am especially angry at the Right Wing using his death

>once again to spread their hate and bigiotry against all gay

>people.

 

Don't be so naive and self-rigtheous. Every political group exploits sensationalistic cases for their own political agenda. Just look at all the mileage which exploitative gay groups have extracted - and are still trying to extract - from Matthew Shepard's corpse.

[Doug69]

>I had hoped that my reply to your first post would clear the

>air between us and make it possible to have a civil

>discussion. I was mistaken.

 

Actually, if you check my post, I believe you will be unable to idenitfy a single sentence or word which is even arguably uncivil. I did nothing other than set forth my views why I thought your opinions were misleading, dangerous and wrong - dangerous not if expressed only this Board, but if, beyond this Board, it's an idea that takes hold.

 

You obviously mistake vigorous disagreement with incivility, and want to be able to express your views without having anyone aggressively criticize them.

 

If you are too sensitive to receive criticism of your opinions, then I would recommend that you not express your views, particularly on a subject as controversial as this one, lest your feelings be hurt.

[+ Charlie]

Regardless of what one may think of Fr. Geoghan's crime, to put an elderly man in the same cell with a violent young killer, who has openly expressed his hatred of anyone who has committed that kind of crime, seems like "cruel and unusual punishment", and makes me wonder about the probity of the Massachusetts prison authorities. They may not have expected him to be murdered, but they must have wanted him to suffer more than normal during his imprisonment.

[shy]

<And it doesn't make someone a homosexual to be an adult male attracted to a boy - it makes one a pedophile.>

 

call me naive, but without giving it any thought, i just assumed a pedophile would naturally molest someone of the sex based on their own sexual persuasion. it only sounds reasonable that a straight pedophile would molest girls, a homosexual pedophile boys, and bisexual both. i guess i need some enlightenment on this, but i'm not sure i have much desire to spend a lot of time researching it. since you seem to have some professional knowledge about it, would you care to explain in some brief detail for the curious?

[Flower]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn! :-)

 

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/34/003_RHETTBS.jpg

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but if there's anything worse than child molestation, it's murder. Some people may think it's a pity Massachussets doesn't have a death penalty for child molesters, but the fact is that it doesn't. Several people had a hand in the pedophile's murder (guards, wardens, and others who clearly knowingly set him up for murder), and they should clearly receive serious jail time for their roles as accomplices to murder.

I must make it clear that I couldn't stand that child molester, and frankly am glad he's dead. But as much as I think our legal system is a joke, we're not a bunch of apes for crying out loud. I'm disgusted by what Geoghan did. What our justice system did to him is even more disgusting, though, because the state should at least have some appearance of propriety. We don't need to have sociopathic thugs doing our dirty work like some Haitian dictator government.

[Guest]

RE: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn! :-)

 

Well, you should have an opinion about it one way or the other. You're an officer of our judicial system. Do you condone what happened?

[Guest fukamarine]

>I'm sorry, but if there's anything worse than child

>molestation, it's murder. Some people may think it's a pity

>Massachussets doesn't have a death penalty for child

>molesters, but the fact is that it doesn't. Several people

>had a hand in the pedophile's murder (guards, wardens, and

>others who clearly knowingly set him up for murder), and they

>should clearly receive serious jail time for their roles as

>accomplices to murder.

>I must make it clear that I couldn't stand that child

>molester, and frankly am glad he's dead. But as much as I

>think our legal system is a joke, we're not a bunch of apes

>for crying out loud. I'm disgusted by what Geoghan did. What

>our justice system did to him is even more disgusting, though,

>because the state should at least have some appearance of

>propriety. We don't need to have sociopathic thugs doing our

>dirty work like some Haitian dictator government.

 

To each his own - but personally I think they should be given bonuses and a huge raise. They have saved the State hundreds of thousands of dollars - maybe millions!

 

fukamarine

[+ Charlie]

Pedophiles who are attracted to really young children usually don't care much about their gender; only their availability and vulnerability matter. On the other hand, a pedophile who is attracted to adolescent boys, between 10 and 17, is rarely interested in girls of that same age.

[Guest Yog-Sothoth]

>

>>Again, I am especially angry at the Right Wing using his death

>>once again to spread their hate and bigiotry against all gay

>>people.

>

>Don't be so naive and self-rigtheous. Every political group

>exploits sensationalistic cases for their own political

>agenda. Just look at all the mileage which exploitative gay

>groups have extracted - and are still trying to extract - from

>Matthew Shepard's corpse.

 

 

Don't be so clueless and self-righteous. My angry at the Right is that they are using the murder of a PEDOPHILE to spread misinformation about and their bigotry against HOMOSEXUALS. You acknowledged yourself these are different.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>However, as a gay man, what REALLY bothers me is how the Right

>Wing and Christian fundementalist are repeatedly linking, as

>they have in the past, to Geoghan as being GAY.

 

Unfortunately they got an assist from the prosecutor, who, in describing the evidence against Geoghan's murderer, described him as hating "child molestors and homosexuals" in the same breath. The inference seemed to be that the two groups are naturally lumped together, and given his choice of a dated term like "homosexual" (does he still call African Americans "Negroes" or "coloreds?") I can't help but wonder if indeed that's what he thinks. I expect fundamentalists to promote that kind of caricature. It would be nice to think we could expect a little better from a prosecutor in Massachusetts, but apparently not.

[Guest fukamarine]

The inference seemed to be that the two groups are

>naturally lumped together, and given his choice of a dated

>term like "homosexual" (does he still call African Americans

>"Negroes" or "coloreds?") I can't help but wonder if indeed

>that's what he thinks.

 

I am not aware that the word "homosexual" is outdated or politically incorrect. What word(s) would you prefer him to have used.

 

fukamarine

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>I am not aware that the word "homosexual" is outdated or

>politically incorrect. What word(s) would you prefer him to

>have used.

 

The word "gay" seems to have caught on in the last thirty or so years -- except, of course, among people who hate to see a "perfectly good word ruined" by its association with "homosexuals" -- the very same people who associate us with child molestors. And that's my main point -- that I would have preferred he didn't bring gay men into it at all, since pedophilia is really its own category.

[Guest Yog-Sothoth]

>Pedophiles who are attracted to really young children usually

>don't care much about their gender; only their availability

>and vulnerability matter. On the other hand, a pedophile who

>is attracted to adolescent boys, between 10 and 17, is rarely

>interested in girls of that same age.

 

 

That is because the later is not, by psychological definition, a pedophile. They are "ephebophilies", adults who are attracted to adolescents.

 

Here is an excellent article about heterosexual ephebophilia ("Scandals Draw Attention to Obscure Condition: Ephebophilia") which appeared in the CHICAGO TRIBUTE. It is quite informative about the subject in general and can be applied to homosexuals, well-worth reading I thought. Here is the link to it:

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-020625kelly,0,3766441.story?coll=chi-newslocal-utl

 

Hope this helps.