A & F pulls it catalog!

[+ glutes]

Amercrombie and Fitch yanked its racy, sex-stuffed catalog which featured page after page of young naked models and extolled the virtues of group sex. Several consumer groups lauched boycotts after they said the catalog advocated orgies and group masturbation.

 

Now where can I get my 'hands' on one of these??????

[Michael]

It just turned into a collector's item - I expect copies will start turning up on eBay in a day or two.

[guptasa1]

Wow...now this would be interesting to see - lol.

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Where Are Thou, Bruce

 

>Amercrombie and Fitch yanked its racy, sex-stuffed catalog

>which featured page after page of young naked models and

>extolled the virtues of group sex. Several consumer groups

>lauched boycotts after they said the catalog advocated orgies

>and group masturbation.

 

Perhaps Tom Bianchi took the photographs since Bruce Weber was always loath to shoot any group of models looking like they might even be having a inch of fun.

[bootdad]

RE: Where Are Thou, Bruce

 

Hey Kids - I find this hard (NO PUN intended) to believe ! ? ! ? !

1 - A+F could give a rats ass about the Christian Right or any homophobic zealots that dislike what this over the top marketing vehicle represents

2 - Bruce Weber has shot this catalog from day one the industry buzz is that his contract exceeds $100 K NET per catalog, not to mention just spending the couple of weeks of shere bliss in the company of those cute boys with all those sylists and hairdressers . . . this is really the only remaining commercial contract of any consequence that Bruce is committed to work on - although he does continue to shoot several magazine editorials in Europe annually

3 - A+F is smart enough to take advantage of this in a BIG PR way if there is any pressure on them to pull the catalog. Expect SALES to SOAR !!!

4 - All of the catalogs are out of print and all are collectables and many appear on E-bay on a weekly basis fetching 2-3 times the cover price.

5 - A+F sells rather ordinary college kid clothing that parallels the merchandise sold by dozens of other retail chains (except that A+F commands twice the price with an impressive annual performance / balance sheet) because of their committment to this rather EDGY catalog strategy.

. . . do you need me to go on ???

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

RE: Where Are Thou, Bruce

 

Actually...

 

I have a good friend who is high on the food-chain at coorporate A&F, so this info should be somewhat meaningful...

 

The last two catalogs were NOT shot by homoerotic-master Bruce Weber. If you compare the last two with others in the series, you'll find that there are minor differences in shot technique and the sudden new amount of female presence & nudity.

 

It's obvious that something (or someone) changed. The boys are still there, but definitely not as abundant as before. Whether that matters or not remains to be seen, as i do still enjoy my Quarterly when it arrives in the mailbox. *evil grin*

 

Weberized or not, the photos are still quite sexy and the epitamy of the all-American boy to me.

 

 

Warmest Always,

 

 

Benjamin Nicholas

[Guest showme43]

glad i got mine last week:o

[Doug69]

RE: Where Are Thou, Bruce

 

>Weberized or not, the photos are still quite sexy and the

>epitamy of the all-American boy to me.

 

A&F is currently facing a race discrimination lawsuit brought by numerous minority models on the ground that A&F essentially uses only white models, because when A&F, and their fans, say things such as "all-American boy," what they mean is white.

 

No black or Asian model would ever be described as being the "epitome of the all-American boy", and this lawsuit contends that people who use that phrase are using racist code words.

 

A&F, according to this lawsuit, is the KKK of the fashion world, and those who rally around A&F and use it as their asthetic standard are really yearning to wear pointy white hats, but can't, so instead, they fetishize white males as an outlet for their White Supremacism.

 

Just sharing.

[+ Lucky]

RE: Where Are Thou, Bruce

 

Finally. Doug and I agree on something. Is this gonna be a good day or what!

As much as I like the A&F pix, I find the fashion slavery they inspire to be obnoxious and I resent that they cannot use minorities in their pictures.

[guyinsf]

What's embarrassing is all of the free press A&F gets for putting out catalogs that are supposedly "too risque". I guess the news media are too lame to realize that there really is no story here -- it's just clever marketing.

 

I thought that the lawsuits against A&F were related to its employment practices in its stores, not its choice of models. From what I've read, there are allegations that A&F generally does not put "minority" workers on the main floor but rather wants them to work more behind the scenes. I'm not saying that their catalogs don't focus on white models (though, honestly, I've only ever seen one of them), but I think a lawsuit by models with respect to not be featured in a catalog would be much more difficult to win/prove than one by employees who actually work in their stores.

[Doug69]

>I thought that the lawsuits against A&F were related to its

>employment practices in its stores, not its choice of models.

 

You may be right - the minority plaintiffs may be rejected job applicants rather than rejected models - but the premise of the lawsuit is exactly what I said: that the A&F asthetic is white-only; that "all-American boy" is code for white males; and that A&F won't use blacks or Asians at all, whether in their stores or catalogues, because the people who like A&F and their asthetic don't want to see black or Asian faces, but want whites only.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

One Stupid Business Strategy

 

>You may be right - the minority plaintiffs may be rejected job

>applicants rather than rejected models - but the premise of

>the lawsuit is exactly what I said: that the A&F asthetic is

>white-only; that "all-American boy" is code for white males;

>and that A&F won't use blacks or Asians at all, whether in

>their stores or catalogues, because the people who like A&F

>and their asthetic don't want to see black or Asian faces, but

>want whites only.

>

 

And you may be right. If so I cannot imagine a more stupid business strategy. The goal of a profit-making business is the pursuit of the dollar. It seems obvious that the broader the customer base the greater the business and presumably the profit. If this is in fact the case, then the Board of Directors ought to replace the management or the Stock Holders ought to replace the Board.

 

The age group courted carries the least racist baggage in our adult society. What attracts young adult customers across the board is sex and style, no? Sex as in hotties that appeal to the customer, and the broader customer base the better. How many in this age group are going to boycot a catalog order or store visit because of the appearance of a minority model in the catalog pages? The same goes for the sales associate behind the counter. The business world has been integrated for decades now and even racists have learned 'to go along' in order 'to get along'. As I said, one stupid business stragegy.

[bootdad]

RE: One Stupid Business Strategy

 

ON THE CONTRARY - it is obvious you have little experience in modern brand management / marketing . . . the extraordinary success of A+F, Calvin Klein, Ralph Lauren, Guess, BOSS . . . to name but a few - is that extraordinary blending of eroticism and creation of images of the perfect fantasy ideal of the slightly nasty (interpret unavailable - untouchable) boy next door . . . often depicted as an almost ayrian ideal !

In countless focus group and research panels - consumers readily admit to how much they adore this totally fabricated image - very few consumers are moved by or interested in those boring PC campaigns by companies like Benneton - the groups making the most noise about ads not being PC are never the customer or the target market . Why do you think the Benneton store count has diminished dramatically during the past decade in America ? Additionally - what you fail to realize that in today's modern world of brand management - smart companies go after a tight demographic and a very specific niche or in some cases even a micro-niche . . . the retail industry long ago gave up the practice of trying to be all things to all people - very few retailers go after the mass market anymore with the exception of mass merchandisers like Wal-Mart (and dying national department store chains) and the Dollar Store.

[Doug69]

RE: One Stupid Business Strategy

 

>And you may be right. If so I cannot imagine a more stupid

>business strategy. The goal of a profit-making business is

>the pursuit of the dollar. It seems obvious that the broader

>the customer base the greater the business and presumably the

>profit. If this is in fact the case, then the Board of

>Directors ought to replace the management or the Stock Holders

>ought to replace the Board.

 

I couldn't disagree more. It is imperative for corporations which sell products, especially products such as clothing which have a highly subjective appeal, to create a distinctive and clearly demarcated brand identity for their product. They can't survive if their products have some amorphous, free-for-all identity which is intended to appeal to everyone equally. That's why every single such product has a very clearly delineated identity and targeted segment of the market. No clothing executive takes the attitude of "uh, yeah, let's just try to sell it to everyone and not have a clear identity."

 

Lots of people are attracted only to white males. Even those who are attracted to others besides white males still see the white male asthetic as superior and will want to emulate it, so they will select fashion products which convey that asthetic. A&F obviously believes that diluting that brand and that image with minority faces will make that appeal less potent and compelling.

 

You can that this strategy is immoral. You can say that it's racist. But to say that it is ineffective - at least on the quite misinformed ground that you invoked - is just wrong.

 

>The age group courted carries the least racist baggage in our

>adult society. What attracts young adult customers across the

>board is sex and style, no?

 

There is often a huge gap between someone's political views and their asthetic or sexual preferences. The fact that someone believes in racial equality hardly precludeds that person from being sexually attracted only to whites, or from seeing the white male asthetic as the most appealing.

 

Virtually every product that is intended to appeal predominantly to a wealthier, upscale market will use predominantly white models and representatives to market their product. Why do you think that is? Because they're too dumb to realize what you realize?

 

> How

>many in this age group are going to boycot a catalog order or

>store visit because of the appearance of a minority model in

>the catalog pages? The same goes for the sales associate

>behind the counter. The business world has been integrated

>for decades now and even racists have learned 'to go along' in

>order 'to get along'. As I said, one stupid business

>stragegy.

 

A&F is doing extremely well among young consumers despite having a seemingly whites-only policy with regard to the face of A&F. Many people in this thread who I am sure would squeal with outrage over being linked to racist concepts nonetheless love A&F and its lily-white models. Doesn't that disprove everything you are saying?

[bigguyinpasadena]

RE: One Stupid Business Strategy

 

I agree with Lucky.I have often refered to A&F as the "Hitler Youth"store.I have never spent a dime there-and I find it's racist advertising to be obscene.

Also(prepare for the heavens to open and one of the seven plagues to start up)I thank doogie for his well thought out points on this subject.

Bland clothes made for bland sheeple.

And I find the wide acceptence-idolization of the A&F concept by the gay community disgusting.

[phage]

>the lawsuit is exactly what I said: that the A&F asthetic is

>white-only; that "all-American boy" is code for white males;

>and that A&F won't use blacks or Asians at all, whether in

>their stores or catalogues, because the people who like A&F

>and their asthetic don't want to see black or Asian faces, but

>want whites only.

 

Ever heard of FUBU? Ever seen a white person in any of their ads? How does this differ and why is it any worse?

 

I understand that the employment issues get dicey, but fashion is a completely trivial industry built entirely around image and aesthetic. You can’t control that image without sticking to the niche that represents it. You know what else you don’t see in A&F stores? Fat or ugly employees.

[Doug69]

>Ever heard of FUBU?

 

No.

 

> Ever seen a white person in any of their

>ads? How does this differ and why is it any worse?

 

I didn't say there was anything wrong with what A&F does (Lucky and BigGuy did), but it's clear that they use race as a highly important factor in selecting their models and in creating their asthetic - and that people who use phrases such as "all-American", whether they admit it or not, are talking about "white males" - and not just white males, but the white males with the defining white characteristics.

 

One can debate if there's anything wrong with that or not - but I was just pointing out that this is factually true.

 

(1) A&F = White.

(2) "All-American" = White.

(3)"A&F guys are hot" = "white guys are hot."

 

>I understand that the employment issues get dicey, but fashion

>is a completely trivial industry built entirely around image

>and aesthetic. You can’t control that image without sticking

>to the niche that represents it. You know what else you don’t

>see in A&F stores? Fat or ugly employees.

 

Yes - as I and the other poster pointed out, many mass marketed products, especially ones that involve choices of style, are geared to certain demographic groups and not others (some cars, for instance, are marketed to old people and not young people; or to suburban moms but not to single women or to men; or to the middle class but not to the rich and wanna-be rich).

 

I think it's a serious and important question why it's any differnet to market a product based on race than it is based, say, on physical appearance or age or class category or gender or any number of other demographic characteristics which every single marketing executive uses to sell their products.

 

But there's no denying that the appeal of A&F and its models is one prominently based on race.

[phage]

>>Ever heard of FUBU?

>

>No.

 

It stands for “For Us By Us” and is a clothing line that makes no apologies for being created by and for urban black youth.

 

>> Ever seen a white person in any of their

>(1) A&F = White.

>(2) "All-American" = White.

>(3)"A&F guys are hot" = "white guys are hot."

 

I agree 100% and your point is well taken about the sensitivity (justified or not) towards race based marketing. ‘White’ is just one of characteristics that the A&F brand represents. It also equals very young, very slim and very smooth.

 

Nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that ‘urban’ is generally a euphemism for black or ethnic. Do you think it is just that this particular euphemism contains ‘American’ that gets people’s shorts in a twist? They take it literally and conclude that people are saying that non-whites are therefore not American? Would there be such a tizzy if the euphemism was “Weber’s Bread Good Looks?”

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

One Stupid Customer

 

You and bootdad make several good points with which I dont take exception and maybe I am the stupid one. Nothing in my remarks was meant to imply that A+F should try to be all things to all groups. However, if the addition of a couple minority guys out of ten models in the A+F catalog, all wearing the same clothes style, causes the customer base to flee to hills, then I am in a lot of company. As a sometimes interested customer and voyeur of mens fashion catalogs I always find a percentage of models that don't do anything for me whatever their race. If there remain several hot guys and cool fashions then it doesn't lessen my interest in the catalog and what it has for sale. Nevertheless, people and business being as they are you guys probably take this point.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Talk about turning a molehill into a mountain~

 

As much as Doug69 did his best to turn my comment about 'All-American Boy(s)' into some hidden racial agenda, let me clarify my opinion by stating that ANY A&F guy could be considered 'All-American,' whether he be black, white, brown, blue or purple.

 

Last time i checked, America was a melting-pot society. Immediately assuming that 'All-American' equals 'white' just doesn't work anymore... It's not the logical choice.

 

Granted, A&F has had some very public lawsuits for race discrimination, but seemingly it hasn't hurt their profit margin. It's bottom line with clothing retailers (as with most business) and it's their choice who they want to cater to in an advertising respect. Much like FUBU, they have a selected market who they have the most sell-through with...

 

In this world of uber-PCism, let's not forget the sole reason that Abercrombie is around: To make money. It's bottom-line. From an advertising perspective, it's a thriving company with a great following (among ALL races) and an amazing PR team.

 

It's not racism... it's just business.

 

 

Warmest Always,

 

 

 

 

Benjamin Nicholas

[Guest fukamarine]

RE: One Stupid Business Strategy

 

>I agree with Lucky.I have often refered to A&F as the "Hitler

>Youth"store.I have never spent a dime there-and I find it's

>racist advertising to be obscene.

 

>Bland clothes made for bland sheeple.

>And I find the wide acceptence-idolization of the A&F concept

>by the gay community disgusting.

 

Give me a break!

 

A&F is using sexual desire to sell it's products. The inferance is that if you wear their clothes you will be as "hot" as the guys who model their product. We all know this is a fallicy, but most of us are willing to buy into it, just it case it might increase our odds.

 

And if you were to take a poll of every man in the country, asking them if they would prefer to look like a white man or a black man - what do you thinks the results would be? I'd bet that overwhelmingly the whites would win and that many blacks would also vote for white.

 

So A&F is simply playing to their audience and what company would not do that if they are intent on the bottom line and wish to have their shareholders best interests at heart.

 

And as to your comment that you find the gay community disgusting in their acceptance of the A&F "vision", I find that to be laughable. I doubt if we could find many on this board who would not sink to their arthritic knees in a split second, given the opportunity to worship/service their models.

 

Start living in the real world and leave the PC shit for the Volvo set!

 

fukamarine

[bigguyinpasadena]

RE: One Stupid Customer

 

I have seen plenty of white kids wearing FUBU,just as I have seen Latino and Asian kids wearing A&F(I cannot recall seeing black kids wearing A&F)I do not know if they actually like the looks-or are simply possuers.Or maybe they do not know(care?)the difference.

I buy 2 kinds of underwear,Roccawear and PhatFarm.Both of theese are for an urban "hip-hop"crowd.I am about as far from "hip-hop"as you can get(LOL)but they make a very good product,that wears well,is well cut,comes in attractive colors and patterns,and is available in my size.My shorts have been admired(blush)by more than one cute young thing as we were undressing!

[Doug69]

> As much as Doug69 did his best to turn my comment about

>'All-American Boy(s)' into some hidden racial agenda,. . . .

 

I know this may be hard for you to understand, given the way people goo over you here, but not everything is about you, Benjamin - and my posting in this thread had nothing at all to do with you or with trying to depict your comment as containing a racial agenda or anything else. I couldn't care less what agenda your comments contain.

 

I posted about this topic because it's one that interests me and I was interested to hear what others had to say about it. A&F clearly has a significant racial component to their ads (I don't think anybody besides you disputed that), and they get away with it by using the term "all-American" when they really mean "white."

 

Do you think anyone would EVER describe an Asian-American or an Africa-American as being "all-American" - let alone use the phrase you used, "the epitome of all-American looks." Everybody knows they wouldn't. By contrast, someone could easily describe a Swede or a Brit who has never been to America but who has blond hair and blue eyes and white skin as being "all-American." I don't see how anyone can doubt that the A&F appeal and the use of this term "all-American" is anything but a term based on race.

 

let me

>clarify my opinion by stating that ANY A&F guy could be

>considered 'All-American,' whether he be black, white, brown,

>blue or purple.

 

What a load of bullshit. What did you mean when you said that these guys in this catalog "epitomized the all-American" look? Other than race, what makes someone look "all-American"? What epitomizes the all-American look if not race?

 

Why not just be honest and say: "yes, when I think of what all-American means, I think it means someone who is white, and I find that look attractive and there's nothing wrong with it." Are you so afraid of offending anyone that you have to insist that the term "all-American" can include people who are black or Asian or Arab when everyone knows that's just not true?

 

>Last time i checked, America was a melting-pot society.

>Immediately assuming that 'All-American' equals 'white' just

>doesn't work anymore... It's not the logical choice.

 

Yes - that's why the term is offensive to some - because it's inaccurate and it really means "white," but people use the term "all-American" anyway because they are afraid to say what they really mean, so they speak in code. That's what you're doing.

>

>Granted, A&F has had some very public lawsuits for race

>discrimination, but seemingly it hasn't hurt their profit

>margin. It's bottom line with clothing retailers (as with

>most business) and it's their choice who they want to cater to

>in an advertising respect.

 

Yes, exactly - and the people they are catering to with their advertising choices are those who like white guys - REALLY white guys - and find really white guys attractive. That's my only point. Why are you struggling against it so much, and admitting it - like you did in this paragraph - only by accident?

 

>In this world of uber-PCism, let's not forget the sole reason

>that Abercrombie is around: To make money. It's bottom-line.

> From an advertising perspective, it's a thriving company with

>a great following (among ALL races) and an amazing PR team. It's not racism... it's just business.

 

It could be racism AND business - if the white asthetic sells, then A&F is using it. It's racist, but it's not done to promote a racial agenda, but to promote a business agenda (maybe).

 

You can argue, legitimately, that there's nothing wrong with that- but by denying that this is what it is, you are implicitly saying that you think that there IS something wrong with it, which is why you have to pretend that it's not what A&F is doing.

 

And I'd love to know your basis for asserting that A&F has a great following among all races. I find that very hard to believe.

[BewareofNick]

must...not.....say.....it......ARRRRRRRRR

 

Doug is right.

 

A&F has long promoted themselves as an "All Ameican" store and they have done so, by and far, by excluding non-Caucasians.

 

I do not feel that there is any inherent racism in doing so, but as Doug suggests they are marketing to white people.

 

FUBU makes no apology for marketing to African-American youth. Neither should A&F for marketing to Caucasian youth.

 

A&F has been taken to task for discriminating in their hiring policies as well they should. They know the law with regards to hiring and should follow it. There is however no law that requires a company to market to everyone.

 

One of my boys is black and he has a quite extensive collection of A&F clothing. Of course, he only dates white boys, so maybe there's soemthing to that.

[woodlawn]

>> As much as Doug69 did his best to turn my comment about

>>'All-American Boy(s)' into some hidden racial agenda,. . . .

>

>

>I know this may be hard for you to understand, given the way

>people goo over you here, but not everything is about you,

 

My, my, what an elevated and substantive argument!

 

 

>Do you think anyone would EVER describe an Asian-American or

>an Africa-American as being "all-American" - let alone use the

>phrase you used, "the epitome of all-American looks."

>Everybody knows they wouldn't.

 

Here we see Doug's usual pattern of expressing his personal opinion as something that "everybody knows." Other variations include expressing it as something that an unspecified "huge number" of people know or do or agree with. It's so easy to find support for your arguments when you are willing to make shit up, isn't it?

 

 

>I don't see how anyone can doubt

 

Yet another variation of the same pattern. The idea is to create support for your argument without actually coming up with anything that resembles a fact.

 

> Other than race, what makes someone look "all-American"?

>What epitomizes the all-American look if not race?

 

Other than race? Anyone think that the "hippie" look in dress and grooming coincides with "all-American." If race is all there is to it, then a white hippie with a beard and shoulder-length hair would fit, right?

 

 

>Are you so afraid of offending anyone that you have to

>insist that the term "all-American" can include people who are

>black or Asian or Arab when everyone knows that's just not

>true?

 

Here we go again with what "everyone knows." Where have I heard that one before?

 

 

>And I'd love to know your basis for asserting that A&F has a

>great following among all races. I find that very hard to

>believe.

 

I think it's the same basis you have for telling us what "everybody knows." You remember that basis, right?