Buff + Cute Guy, Deceitful and Malicious Behavior

[+ quoththeraven]

LOL, I wouldn't call your avatar very masculine either,

 

I hate that "purse fell out" phrase. Why not be more specific? "He lisped." "His voice was too high-pitched." "He was too femme for me."

 

Don't expect me to sympathize a lot, though. I'm kind of over using supposedly "feminine" characteristics to slam men AND women.

 

I present and think of myself as cisgender, but more and more I realize I am more "doesn't give a fuck, take what I want from column XX and column XY" gender. (After all, unless we have a medical condition, we ALL have testosterone and estrogen roaming our bodies.) No wonder my non-holiday avatar is someone who has both a pussy and a dick.

 

(My holiday avatar is male. The shoulder muscles should be a dead giveaway.)

[Tonyko]

I hate that "purse fell out" phrase. Why not be more specific? "He lisped." "His voice was too high-pitched." "He was too femme for me."

 

Don't expect me to sympathize a lot, though. I'm kind of over using supposedly "feminine" characteristics to slam men AND women.

 

I present and think of myself as cisgender, but more and more I realize I am more "doesn't give a fuck, take what I want from column XX and column XY" gender. (After all, unless we have a medical condition, we ALL have testosterone and estrogen roaming our bodies.) No wonder my non-holiday avatar is someone who has both a pussy and a dick.

 

(My holiday avatar is male. The shoulder muscles should be a dead giveaway.)

So glad someone clarified this bc I didn't know WTF it meant lol. I do however agree that it IS important to share specs not discernable in an ad (or in this case a live phone conversation that may affect a decision to hire. It's not a judgement or label it's a matter of taste since we are paying to be with someone we want who otherwise would not want us To me it's no diff than pointing out his head is shaved or his back is as hairy as bigfoot or any other trait not apparent in the ad that some may find a turn-off. (neither of those things would bother me btw ) However I DO like a butch or "regular Joe" kind of guy, and voice is important to me, so before hiring I usually make a test call (hoping to get his Vmail in "his" voice) just to hear him before I book. And I HAVE changed my mind based on what I heard.

[geminibear]

I hate that "purse fell out" phrase. Why not be more specific? "He lisped." "His voice was too high-pitched." "He was too femme for me."

 

Don't expect me to sympathize a lot, though. I'm kind of over using supposedly "feminine" characteristics to slam men AND women.

 

I present and think of myself as cisgender, but more and more I realize I am more "doesn't give a fuck, take what I want from column XX and column XY" gender. (After all, unless we have a medical condition, we ALL have testosterone and estrogen roaming our bodies.) No wonder my non-holiday avatar is someone who has both a pussy and a dick.

 

(My holiday avatar is male. The shoulder muscles should be a dead giveaway.)

I was going to take this opportunity to ask some questions regarding your non-holiday avatar, but now I think I am going to shut up and go back to smelling my marijuana infused butter popcorn (because I can't eat it) and rethink the whole thing.

[Tigger]

I hate that "purse fell out" phrase. Why not be more specific? "He lisped." "His voice was too high-pitched." "He was too femme for me."

 

Don't expect me to sympathize a lot, though. I'm kind of over using supposedly "feminine" characteristics to slam men AND women.

 

I present and think of myself as cisgender, but more and more I realize I am more "doesn't give a fuck, take what I want from column XX and column XY" gender. (After all, unless we have a medical condition, we ALL have testosterone and estrogen roaming our bodies.) No wonder my non-holiday avatar is someone who has both a pussy and a dick.

 

(My holiday avatar is male. The shoulder muscles should be a dead giveaway.)

 

So glad someone clarified this bc I didn't know WTF it meant lol. I do however agree that it IS important to share specs not discernable in an ad (or in this case a live phone conversation that may affect a decision to hire. It's not a judgement or label it's a matter of taste since we are paying to be with someone we want who otherwise would not want us To me it's no diff than pointing out his head is shaved or his back is as hairy as bigfoot or any other trait not apparent in the ad that some may find a turn-off. (neither of those things would bother me btw ) However I DO like a butch or "regular Joe" kind of guy, and voice is important to me, so before hiring I usually make a test call (hoping to get his Vmail in "his" voice) just to hear him before I book. And I HAVE changed my mind based on what I heard.

 

What about a rousing discussion on 'The Gay Voice' and other effeminate mannerisms?

[+ quoththeraven]

I was going to take this opportunity to ask some questions regarding your non-holiday avatar, but now I think I am going to shut up and go back to smelling my marijuana infused butter popcorn (because I can't eat it) and rethink the whole thing.

 

Did I scare you away? Sorry; it wasn't intentional.

[+ quoththeraven]

What about a rousing discussion on 'The Gay Voice' and other effeminate mannerisms?

 

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

 

1. Lots of gay men, for whatever reason, don't fit the "stereotype" of "gay voice" and effeminacy/effeminate mannerisms.

 

2. It's equally true that many gay men, including some of the aforesaid "masc" guys, can't stand feel negatively toward "gay voice" and other effeminate mannerisms.

 

We can have another go around about preferences, biases and bigotry, but if someone ticks off the wrong effeminacy boxes, he's made to feel shitty about himself by such comments, whether he's an escort or not. I personally think that result is wrong.

 

Then again, I know straight guys with high-pitched voices or effeminate mannerisms. You really can never know.

 

Hire whom you like, hire for fantasy or whatever, but when you discuss things here, be aware others are reading, including the lurkers. Is there a "no femme" sign on the doorknob to this clubhouse? How different is that from a "no blacks," "no Hispanics," or "no Asians" sign?

 

(For those of you who don't already know, I'm a half-Asian (Korean) woman who IDs as Asian-American, kinky, and queer. I've also been a client.)

[Juan Vancouver]

WHAT SHE SAID! Brava!

[sincitymix]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

 

1. Lots of gay men, for whatever reason, don't fit the "stereotype" of "gay voice" and effeminacy/effeminate mannerisms.

 

2. It's equally true that many gay men, including some of the aforesaid "masc" guys, can't stand feel negatively toward "gay voice" and other effeminate mannerisms.

 

We can have another go around about preferences, biases and bigotry, but if someone ticks off the wrong effeminacy boxes, he's made to feel shitty about himself by such comments, whether he's an escort or not. I personally think that result is wrong.

 

Then again, I know straight guys with high-pitched voices or effeminate mannerisms. You really can never know.

 

Hire whom you like, hire for fantasy or whatever, but when you discuss things here, be aware others are reading, including the lurkers. Is there a "no femme" sign on the doorknob to this clubhouse? How different is that from a "no blacks," "no Hispanics," or "no Asians" sign?

 

(For those of you who don't already know, I'm a half-Asian (Korean) woman who IDs as Asian-American, kinky, and queer. I've also been a client.)

 

I had a problem growing up trying to check the box for race on all those school test forms. Pick only one it says.. I remember asking the teacher what I should do because im 1/2 Korean and 1/2 white. She said pick one only. I know I confused the testers over the years because I kept going from Asian to Caucasian. I asked my parents too and they said I was both.. my mother said pick Asian, my dad said pick Caucasian. In the end I selected Asian. Now I see some forms are updated to reflect multi racial or more then one. Which I am glad to see as my nieces are Korean, white, and black.

 

Going to the above I do have a preference for Caucasians, but its not a set in stone rule. I worked with a Pharmacist who was Korean, german, French, and I would crawl over broken glass for a chance to lick the sweat off his neck. He was that hot everyone has preferences in one shape or form. Its just how we go about expressing those preferences. I would hope it is done in a tactful and humanistic way.

[+ Gar1eth]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.

 

 

 

It's equally true that many gay men, including some of the aforesaid "masc" guys, can't stand feel negatively toward "gay voice" and other effeminate mannerisms.

 

We can have another go around about preferences, biases and bigotry, but if someone ticks off the wrong effeminacy boxes, he's made to feel shitty about himself by such comments, whether he's an escort or not. I personally think that result is wrong.

 

It's definitely a problem. I mean I know intellectually these kind of characteristics are baseless reasons to form opinions of people on. But I can't help that overly effeminate guys strike a dissonant chord within me. But it would be very difficult for me to be attracted to someone that's effeminate. And this is even with me being one of those higher voiced guys. My choir teacher told me in junior high he thought my voice would break soon when I was about 12. Well my voice might be somewhat deeper. I don't sound like a 12 year old. But on the phone over the years it's not been extremely unusual to be mistaken for female. Although come to think of it, it hasn't happened in recent memory over the last year.

 

 

As for acting effeminate/'gay', I just don't know. I know I'm not the most 'macho' guy. My sister told me a few years ago it was obvious I was gay. So has a distant friend. But both of these knew I was gay when they said it. My sister also has the knowledge that I'm 54 years old and never-not even as an adolescent- had a girlfriend. Of course I've never had a boyfriend either. On the other hand an older female cousin only 5 years or so ago ( I'm not completely out to my family yet-my mother and siblings know and probably nieces and nephews) asked me whether I wanted her to find me a Jewish woman to date from among her acquaintances. And my cousin has seen me frequently over the years. I'm not a stranger to her. Also many escorts over the years have said I'm not particularly effeminate (g-d knows I'm not graceful). But they might have easily sensed that telling me I was would not have been great for their prospects at being re-hired.

 

Then again, I know straight guys with high-pitched voices or effeminate mannerisms. You really can never know.

 

 

Well obviously that's going to happen. And there probably aren't good studies about the percentage of straight effeminate males (or masculine woman) vs gay effeminate males (lesbian woman). That clip I saw of the Gay Voice Documentary months ago was interesting where it showed that the straight male with some effeminate characteristics had been raised without much of a male influence in his formative years.

 

But I think the point is that the stereotype of effeminate gay men is so enduring. I mean that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. But if you consider that the effeminate behavior is usually present to some extent in childhood when a child wouldn't know about the stereotype, then I think there has to be some truth to the stereotype with it involving some genetic/epigenetic/hormonal factors. But something like this regarding behavior in humans is never 100%. And then you have the confounding effects of culture and as it varies from country to country. With our society in general being much more rigid about males showing affection for each other compared to say Latin America and Southern Europe.

 

Gman

[Tonyko]

What this ALL boils down to is a butch gymrat man's man (whatever that means) is NO better than a big queer sissy homo faggot (Kevin Kline's description of himself in "In And Out" ) and we're all equal regardless of race creed color size age etc etc etc etal, HOWEVER WHEN HIRING WE MUST NEVER FEEL we're being biast or non-PC if we have a preference when it comes to the kinda' guys we like and state that It's NO diff than saying I like blondes or DON'T like beards etc. We all come equiped with our own individual little dick buttons and can't explain what pushes them we just know what does and what doesn't and there's NOTHING wrong with stating that.

[+ quoththeraven]

I had a problem growing up trying to check the box for race on all those school test forms. Pick only one it says.. I remember asking the teacher what I should do because im 1/2 Korean and 1/2 white. She said pick one only. I know I confused the testers over the years because I kept going from Asian to Caucasian. I asked my parents too and they said I was both.. my mother said pick Asian, my dad said pick Caucasian. In the end I selected Asian. Now I see some forms are updated to reflect multi racial or more then one. Which I am glad to see as my nieces are Korean, white, and black.

 

Going to the above I do have a preference for Caucasians, but its not a set in stone rule. I worked with a Pharmacist who was Korean, german, French, and I would crawl over broken glass for a chance to lick the sweat off his neck. He was that hot everyone has preferences in one shape or form. Its just how we go about expressing those preferences. I would hope it is done in a tactful and humanistic way.

 

Hi five, fellow hapa! I presume from the above that your mom is ethnically Korean and your dad is white. I'm just the opposite.

 

Don't know about you, but I grew up in an era and place where I was the only Asian kid - forget Korean - until I was in 8th grade. Consider what it is like being the only Asian person you know outside of your relatives, who live hours away in the NY metro area. Consider that unlike you, whose gayness might not have been visible to others, I've spent my entire life aware that I'm different. Reminded of it all the time. I fucking hated Barbie because she was everything I wasn't. And yet my ancestors had been in this country as long as many of my classmates (three out of four of my grandparents were born elsewhere) and worked just as hard, if not harder, than any of theirs.

 

My paternal grandfather came to the U.S. from Korea early in the 20th century to cut sugarcane in Hawaii before emigrating to the continental US, where he married a picture bride who fled Korea with her daughter from a previous marriage due to the Japanese occupation (the Japanese killed her father, brother, and husband) and settled in Colorado to raise and sell vegetables along with eight girls (that includes his stepdaughter) and one boy in a rented two-room shack with a dirt floor basement. That's where my father slept.

 

My maternal grandfather came to the US from Ireland around the same time. At that point, Ireland was not yet a free, independent country. Scuttlebutt is he was a member of the IRA before he left, so he probably came as much for political freedom as economic reasons. Being white and English-speaking, he was able to start higher up the socio-economic scale than my other grandfather. He was also entrepreneurial, had the Irish gift of gab, and was extroverted and personable - qualities that were not passed along to my mother or (other than gabbiness) to me. He built up a business as an insurance and real estate agent. He had advantages because of the color of his skin, because he knew English, and because he married a German woman who'd been born here and who inherited a brownstone from her uncles when they died. His work required less physical strength, and while entrepreneurial, much of it involved him shooting bull with people he probably would have socialized with anyway.

 

My paternal grandfather had to struggle through language difficulties (he learned English, but still had an accent; my grandmother never became fluent) as well as the vagaries of weather, but he and his family came out of the Depression better than many because everyone needed food and as truck farmers they always had something to eat.

 

On the other hand, all those girls were more of a burden than boys would have been because they weren't as useful on the farm (gender roles and less upper body strength). One of them was given away to a childless couple only for my grandmother to reclaim her a few days later. (Imagine what it must be like to grow up knowing that story.) As they got to high-school age, most or all of the girls were shipped off to live with families in town and act as maidservants in exchange for room and board. This also helped them assimilate.

 

Of all of my relatives, the most successful in terms of status and finances was not my father, although he was a well-paid engineer for a multinational company, but one of his older sisters. He was the only one from his generation to receive a college degree, but she held an executive position at a nationwide non-profit. She travelled all the time for business as well as overseeing the installation of computers in her office in the early/mid-60s, during which she spent most nights, and slept, in her office.

 

This is all to say life is often unfair. Those who aren't majority or mainstream have a tougher time. No one in subsequent generations has achieved my aunt's success, and it came at the cost of a relationship with her son, who cut ties with her after he married because he felt rejected and neglected when she put him in boarding school and put her work ahead of him. (She, along with most of my father's sisters, was a divorcee.) How he expected her to keep her job and travel with him at home during a time when women weren't supposed to work and childcare was scarcer than it is now, I don't know, but he's held onto that grudge his whole life to the point that he didn't even fly from California to New Jersey to attend his mother's funeral, thus making him persona non grata to everyone but me.

 

I can also say that I have blood relatives of all races. The father of the daughter of one of my cousins on my mother's side is black. Some of my cousins on my father's side are Korean and Chinese. (There weren't enough Korean guys to go around at the time.) One aunt (the one who was given away and reclaimed) married a white guy but divorced him later without having produced any kids. Her long-term boyfriend after that was also white.

 

Sorry for the treatise on my family background, but it's pertinent. I can only echo sincitymix. everyone has preferences in one shape or form. Its just how we go about expressing those preferences. I would hope it is done in a tactful and humanistic way.

I disagree somewhat with Tonyko, though. Other than body shape, don't state your biases/preferences here. Keep them to yourselves. Yes, it may mean not all of the recs you get will apply, but it will also mean that people in the categories you don't prefer (client and escort) don't make wrong assumptions about you. Just as a matter of common sense and statistics, not all of those preferences are unaffected by societal bias even though you may be (or think you are) completely unbiased.

 

Just FYI, with the exception of Tyger, who's part native American - Lakota, if I remember correctly - I've only ever slept with white guys. Much of that is due to who I know - my social circle is predominantly white - and under what circumstances. But I'm attracted to people across racial and ethnic categories. It's hard for me not to believe my multicultural background and upbringing has something to do with that.

 

Gman, I think the jury is out. It's just as likely that those stereotypes have as much to do with how society views gay men as it has to do with their "intrinsic" nature. In other words, both nature and nurture are at play here. But somehow society, and even academics, can't accept the concept that there is no one answer. This despite how wonderfully complex life is.

[sincitymix]

You are very correct. My mother is Korean and my Father is White.

Im a child of the 80's. I spent the majority of my life growing up on an AFB at Okinawa, so I did see a lot of diversity. Though what I never encountered and it was never discussed was Gay or Homosexuality. I knew at a very very young age I was different. It may be hard to believe but I think I knew as early as 8? but to me I was "different" I didn't know what that difference was. When I think back on it, I remember the horrified look on my mothers face when she caught me running up and down the upstairs tile floor in some of her clunky wooden heels. I just liked the way they sounded on the tile. She wouldn't tell me why I couldn't wear her shoes for the sound they made.. but I knew something was wrong with it, and didn't ask anymore questions. I wanted to play with my sisters Barbies (don't get me started on her Dolly Parton Cowboy Barbie), my Gi Joes had kissing fun time moments with each other, and my He-Man did kiss time with BlackStar and Bravestarr. I grew up surrounded by Alpha masculine Military guys, army, marines, air-force, navy. In uniform everywherei turned. Friends with hot dads wearing uniforms. Going to the beach and seeing naked military men in the showers. Growing up around other military Brats. I'm sure that explains certain desires and preferences I have.

I didn't find out what Gay was until I came to the US at the age of 14, and experienced massive culture shock... and then everything made sense. why my dad threatened to beat my ass if he ever found me at the barracks.

 

 

My moms side of the family pretty much was a life of privilege. Her family was an offshoot of the royal family in some form. They refused to give fealty to the Japanese emperor, and abdicated their titles. My mother wont tell me anything more about what her fathers side of the family experienced.. I gather it was a rather bad time for them, considering their refusal must have been a spit in the face of the Japanese.

Whatever fortune they had dwindled out during my mothers lifetime, my maternal grandfather trusted the wrong people, loaned out money and had poor choices in business partners. (for those who don't know, Koreans don't really trust banks, and loans are given out based on personal word). My moms family was horrified that she was going to marry what they considered a penniless American soldier, but came to accept him after they spent time with him.. and cancelling the arranged marriage they had set up for my mother (apparently that cost them dearly too).

My mom faced a lot of discrimination when she came to the states. she knew basic English, but took the time to learn as fast as she could, and finally realized what my dads family was saying about her. "Why couldn't he marry a nice white girl" "She must be in it for his money" "She just wants Citizenship". A lot of friction and tension after my mother learned English to say the least. Then my sister and I were born and everything was suddenly all golden.

There is still a lot of older generation hostility towards Japanese as well, When a cousin married a Japanese girl, that caused a whole mess of drama, until the baby was born. Funny how it takes the birth of babies to bring family together.

To be honest, I don't know much about my fathers side of the family, other then his mothers side of the family is related to Benjamin franklins sister. His fathers family had some huge family tiff, and they changed the family name ever so slightly to spite the other side. His ancestry from what I was told is German, Welsh, and Cherokee. This has me thinking I should research more into my fathers family to see what is hidden under the rocks.

[Traveler North]

Sad to hear this - I was about to try to book Adam but had a suspicion from a conversation some months back that he could be picky with clients (no criteria and nothing beyond some other guys' experiences). While I am sorry this happened to you, Andy2, your experience has saved me from foolishly losing revenue.

 

Just saw Adam and he was great. Nice warm laid back personality, fantastic body, great in bed. I could have cuddled with him all night. Will be sure to see him again longer than 90 minutes.