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Thai Gay Masseur / Escort Murdered in London


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Plea to gays in hunt for killer of Thai masseur

By Jonathan Brown

 

29 July 2004

 

London's gay community is being asked to help solve the murder of a Thai masseur who was strangled and stabbed at his home in Chelsea on Friday.

 

Niphan Trikhana, known as Nikki, may have had high-profile or celebrity clients. The 32-year-old, who had lived in England since March, 2001, could have been offering sex along with traditional massage. Police have set up a confidential hotline for his clients, staffed by a gay officer.

 

Two weeks ago, the Bangkok-born masseur had rented a basement bedsit in the building. His fully clothed body was on the floor and police also discovered business cards advertising his massage services. There was no sign of a break-in and it is not thought he was sexually assaulted. Officers believe he probably knew his killer and had let him in, although they are keeping an open mind on the motive.

 

Mr Trikhana had moved from a basement flat in Notting Hill, where he also entertained clients, on 13 July. The last confirmed sighting of him was two days later, at the Lilian Bishop School of English in south-west London where he was a student. His body was found a week later. Detectives think he was killed between 15 and 20 July.

 

Detective Inspector Bill Jephson, of the Metropolitan Police, said: "We are appealing for people to come forward to help us build up a picture of his lifestyle and circle of friends. This is a sensitive issue ... and we are working closely with the gay and lesbian community. People can speak to us in confidence at the incident room and if they feel more comfortable talking to a gay officer they can do so."

 

The force has changed the way gay crime is investigated. A police inquiry involving representatives of the gay community is re-examining investigations into six murders dating from 1990. It is intended to establish whether the cases were affected by anti-gay prejudice among officers and to learn lessons for police working with the homosexual community.

 

Anyone with information is asked to ring 0208 358 0200, or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111

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Guest zipperzone

>When do you think we in the U.S. will ever have such a

>progressive police force?

 

Under Bush & Asscroft? Dream on!

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Guest rohale

>Even in San Francisco you wouldn't see a progressive police

>force like 'Metropolitan', you wouldn't have gotten half the

>respectful press coverage.

>May Niphan Trikhana Rest In Peace.

 

I wouldn't exactly praise the Metropolitan Police too much. In last ten years or so every Home Secretary from Douglas Herd to David Blunkett have ordered Scotland Yard to conduct internal investigations into the operations of the Metropolitan Police ranging from gay hate crimes to racial hate crimes. Most of the time, the investigations come up empty handed or reach inconclusive results. So the government fearing a little media backlash recommend more community policing. Then they hope the issue fades and the public moves onto other matters and that usually does the trick.

 

As a side note as much as the gay community is being asked to help, I dont think there will be that many people who will come forward. In the UK, no one really wants to get involved and especially with the National Front who pay close attention to cases such as this one. It then becomes a bit of a health hazard, if one were to step forward and start talking. Britain is still very much a country divided along the issue of acceptance of gays into mainstream society. The only fundamental difference is that there really isn't much of a religious right in Great Britain, so politicans really dont have to pander to a particular group.

 

I really very sorry for the family of Mr Trikhana, no one can take away their loss of a loved one. Still I hope they find the killer, but I would not be suprised if this case drags on for a few more months before the police decide to close the book. It's a shame with all this hate in the world that Mr Trikhana became another unlucky victim for what ever reasons unknown as of this point in time.

 

Rohale

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>>When do you think we in the U.S. will ever have such a

>>progressive police force?

>

>Under Bush & Asscroft? Dream on!

 

In case you haven't heard, the Federal Government doesn't operate police departments. That's done by municipalities. That's why they're called the NYPD or the LAPD. Blaming "Bush & Asscroft" for the methods used in police investigations is rather idiotic, given that they have nothing to do with such investigations.

 

And, prior to 2000, when we had "progressive", enlightened Daddies who loved us (sort of) in Washington, police departments weren't exactly renowned for their sensitivity and "progressive" approach to gay-related issued.

 

Is the pathologic desire to blame mean, unloving Daddy Bush for every one of your grievances really so great that you're willing to disregard even basic facts and logic to do so? Apparently.

 

When you get diarreah, do you blame "Bush & Asscroft" for that, too?

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In the UK, no one really wants to get involved

>and especially with the National Front who pay close attention

>to cases such as this one. It then becomes a bit of a health

>hazard, if one were to step forward and start talking.

 

 

Who is the "National Front" and why are they such a threat? Are you saying that there are militias in the UK?

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>I wouldn't exactly praise the Metropolitan Police too much.

 

Why not? Everyone knows that everything that is not in America - ESPECIALLY when it's in (said with whispered reverence) Europe - is englightened and good and progressive and just.

 

US police = facist, bad, gay-hating, mean

Europe police = kind, good, loving, gay-embracing, advanced.

 

Isn't that just obvious?

 

>In last ten years or so every Home Secretary from Douglas Herd

>to David Blunkett have ordered Scotland Yard to conduct

>internal investigations into the operations of the

>Metropolitan Police ranging from gay hate crimes to racial

>hate crimes. Most of the time, the investigations come up

>empty handed or reach inconclusive results. So the government

>fearing a little media backlash recommend more community

>policing. Then they hope the issue fades and the public moves

>onto other matters and that usually does the trick.

 

Look at how well this tactic works. Some police spokesman comes out and spits out a few statements with the word "gay" in it that isn't filled with derogatory meaning, and these swooning homos fall all over themselves thanking the Police for not hating them.

 

As long as you have shallow, slogan-addicted people who are desperate to be loved by their Government, all you'll need to do is throw them a few "progressive" words and they will blindly adore you. It doesn't matter if this crime is solved to them. What matters is that the Police said the word "gay" without saying mean things about them. Therefore, they feel loved. Therefore, the police, and govenrment, has done its job.

 

> In the UK, no one really wants to get involved

>and especially with the National Front who pay close attention

>to cases such as this one. It then becomes a bit of a health

>hazard, if one were to step forward and start talking.

>Britain is still very much a country divided along the issue

>of acceptance of gays into mainstream society. The only

>fundamental difference is that there really isn't much of a

>religious right in Great Britain, so politicans really dont

>have to pander to a particular group.

 

Yes - as your comments reflet, almost every European county has a strong, influential far-right, fascist, nationalistic party - some of whom are actually in government positions in those countries, having been voted in. But at least there's no "religious right", so those countries are the Beacon of all that's Good and Just in the world.

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http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/polstruct.htm#FED

 

"There are approximately 60 different federal police agencies, and the Big 8 reside in either Justice or the Treasury Department. Defense, Interior, State, and Agriculture also have police agencies, and a few of them are listed here. There are also about 13 intelligence agencies that can be counted as law enforcement, if you like, along with military police, who can also be counted."

 

But are we not a bit off topic?

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Guest zipperzone

>>>When do you think we in the U.S. will ever have such a

>>>progressive police force?

>>

>>Under Bush & Asscroft? Dream on!

>

>In case you haven't heard, the Federal Government doesn't

>operate police departments. That's done by municipalities.

>That's why they're called the NYPD or the LAPD. Blaming "Bush

>& Asscroft" for the methods used in police investigations is

>rather idiotic, given that they have nothing to do with such

>investigations.

 

Sure doesn't take much to get you frothin' at the mouth, does it?

 

If you think that Asscroft in his capacity of Attorney General doesn't have any influence over how police forces are run, then you probably still believe in the tooth fairy too!

 

>When you get diarreah, do you blame "Bush & Asscroft" for

>that, too?

 

No Dougie Dearest, I don't. Do you?

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Guest zipperzone

>http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/polstruct.htm#FED

>

>"There are approximately 60 different federal police

>agencies, and the Big 8 reside in either Justice or the

>Treasury Department. Defense, Interior, State, and Agriculture

>also have police agencies, and a few of them are listed here.

>There are also about 13 intelligence agencies that can be

>counted as law enforcement, if you like, along with military

>police, who can also be counted."

>

>But are we not a bit off topic?

 

We sure are - but that's never stopped this board before!

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This article sums up the progress in the Metropolitan (London) Police though the same cannot be claimed for other forces:

 

A gay police officer awarded the MBE for helping modernise police attitudes says the situation has dramatically improved in the past five years.

 

When Inspector Paul Cahill, 32, joined the police in the 1990s he said it was "virtually not acceptable to be gay".

 

Now each London division has an officer to liaise with the gay community and the Gay Police Association, of which he is chairman, has 1,000 members.

 

His MBE was for "services to diversity in the police and the wider community".

 

Mr Cahill hit the headlines after appearing on the front of the Gay Times in full uniform in 1997.

 

He was also involved in using gay officers to reassure the public and gather intelligence around Old Compton Street in the aftermath of the Soho nail bombing in 1999.

 

Now a tactical advisor to the Metropolitan Police's SO19 firearms unit, Mr Cahill said the MBE was "quite a surprise".

 

He said when gay officers had first tried to start their own organisation, there was a "vociferous" letter-writing campaign against it.

 

But he said: "I do think things have changed, certainly in the last five years there has been a dramatic improvement.

 

"The progress in race equality has had a knock-on effect in terms of general equality.

 

"But you can't see gay officers and that has had a detrimental effect on the speed with which things have progressed."

 

The Gay Police Association was given public funding in 2002, putting it on an equal footing with groups for female and ethnic minority officers.

 

"People don't judge you as much now," said Mr Cahill.

 

"I was the only gay person I knew at training school, whereas this week... we have 27 'out' gay officers at Hendon.

 

"That's a massive sea-change in people's confidence in the organisation."

 

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir John Stevens nominated Mr Cahill for the MBE.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3358033.stm

 

The National Front is no longer relevant in the UK - its replacement is the supposedly "respectable" British National Party which has limited electoral support and which has recently been exposed for involvement in racial violence.

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>http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/polstruct.htm#FED

>

>"There are approximately 60 different federal police

>agencies, and the Big 8 reside in either Justice or the

>Treasury Department. Defense, Interior, State, and Agriculture

>also have police agencies, and a few of them are listed here.

>There are also about 13 intelligence agencies that can be

>counted as law enforcement, if you like, along with military

>police, who can also be counted."

 

They don't have jurisdiction over routine murders. They are authorized to investigate only federal crimes. The type of murder referenced by the inital poster would not implicate federal law, and would only be investigated by local police departments.

 

>But are we not a bit off topic?

 

Is there a new rule which provides that the only topic which can be discussed in a thread is the one raised by the initial post?

 

I've honestly never understood this concept before. Conversations between people flow naturally. I've never been involved in a conversation which ended at exactly the same point where it began, have you? I've also, in real life, never heard of anyone objecting when the natural flow of a conversation takes people into different areas and perspectives. That seems to be the hallmark of an interesting discussion. Why would anyone be opposed to that?

 

In any event, if you're angry about new topics being raised in this thread, I guess you should direct it to the person who - out of nowhere - used this story about the murder of this poor escort in ENGLAND to start bashing Bush and "Asscroft" - actually, now that I check, the person who first went off-topic was the very first person to respond, who did so by lamenting that "we" (meaning the U.S.) dont' have such progressive police forces as England. So, it was post #1 where the mischief began - from there, nobody strictly stuck to the original topic - including me and, of course, you, and everyone else who has participated in this thread since the original post.

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Guest zipperzone

>In any event, if you're angry about new topics being raised in

>this thread, I guess you should direct it to the person who -

>out of nowhere - used this story about the murder of this poor

>escort in ENGLAND to start bashing Bush and "Asscroft" -

>actually, now that I check, the person who first went

>off-topic was the very first person to respond, who did so by

>lamenting that "we" (meaning the U.S.) dont' have such

>progressive police forces as England. So, it was post #1

>where the mischief began - from there, nobody strictly stuck

>to the original topic - including me and, of course, you, and

>everyone else who has participated in this thread since the

>original post.

 

Wouldn't it be loverly to be perfect and always right?

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>They don't have jurisdiction over routine murders. They are

>authorized to investigate only federal crimes. The type of murder

>referenced by the inital poster would not implicate federal law,

>and would only be investigated by local police departments.

 

}( But your statement was "In case you haven't heard, the Federal Government doesn't operate police departments" which wasn't factual. However, I'll accept your rearrangement.

 

Which leads us to examine laws on the Federal level that could be construed to apply. Federal Laws Providing for the Death penalty http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=29&did=192

 

If you wanted to relate it to the subject matter at hand. I believe that one or more of (18 U.S.C. 241, 242, 245) (18 U.S.C. 1111) (18 U.S.C. 2340) would be ample in the case.

 

However would it be done for a "routine" murder? :( Probably not unless it occurred on Federal Property, or the victim was a Federal Official. There have been exceptions but they tend not to be the rule.

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Guest rohale

> In the UK, no one really wants to get involved

>>and especially with the National Front who pay close

>attention

>>to cases such as this one. It then becomes a bit of a

>health

>>hazard, if one were to step forward and start talking.

>

>

>Who is the "National Front" and why are they such a threat?

>Are you saying that there are militias in the UK?

 

 

I just want to thank Londonbear for correcting me. Nowadays they are called the British National Front. Recently one of their leaders was caught on tape stating that he lives and breathes to kill Pakistanis who reside in Britain. I think one of the other leaders physically harmed an asian youth sometime last year To answer your question, the National Front are the equivalent to the KKK in the United States. Probably not as dangerous compared to the KKK. The old National Front had a policy to kick out all foreigners from the UK. Particularily back in the 1970's they would mainly target immigrants from the Indian Subcontinent who settled in Britain in the 1960's. They were mainly made of skinhead school dropouts and mods who at times used physical violence to intimidate colored people living in the UK. I'm not really sure if they are a threat compared to what they used to be twenty years ago. Everyone has their point of view on this matter. No, there aren't any militias in the UK. Back in 1995, there was a school shooting in Scotland. If I remember correctly, John Major's Conservative Government made the ownership of guns that much more tougher. You have to understand the police in Britain don't carry guns and general public have never really been allowed to own guns. Most people have mixed feelings on this issue. I hope I've answered your questions.

 

Rohale

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Guest rohale

> In the UK, no one really wants to get involved

>>and especially with the National Front who pay close

>attention

>>to cases such as this one. It then becomes a bit of a

>health

>>hazard, if one were to step forward and start talking.

>

>

>Who is the "National Front" and why are they such a threat?

>Are you saying that there are militias in the UK?

 

 

I just want to thank Londonbear for correcting me. Nowadays they are called the British National Front. Recently one of their leaders was caught on tape stating that he lives and breathes to kill Pakistanis who reside in Britain. I think one of the other leaders physically harmed an asian youth sometime last year To answer your question, the National Front are the equivalent to the KKK in the United States. Probably not as dangerous compared to the KKK. The old National Front had a policy to kick out all foreigners from the UK. Particularily back in the 1970's they would mainly target immigrants from the Indian Subcontinent who settled in Britain in the 1960's. They were mainly made of skinhead school dropouts and mods who at times used physical violence to intimidate colored people living in the UK. I'm not really sure if they are a threat compared to what they used to be twenty years ago. Everyone has their point of view on this matter. No, there aren't any militias in the UK. Back in 1995, there was a school shooting in Scotland. If I remember correctly, John Major's Conservative Government made the ownership of guns that much more tougher. You have to understand the police in Britain don't carry guns and general public have never really been allowed to own guns. Most people have mixed feelings on this issue. I hope I've answered your questions.

 

Rohale

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Guest rohale

>>I wouldn't exactly praise the Metropolitan Police too much.

>

>

>Why not? Everyone knows that everything that is not in

>America - ESPECIALLY when it's in (said with whispered

>reverence) Europe - is englightened and good and progressive

>and just.

 

First of I want to apologise due to the fact that the original thread was about a gay man who was murdered and how the case is progressing. Somehow the thread has gone off track slightly so. I'm partially responsible for making it. So for anyone who are scratching their heads and thinking how could this have happened, what can I say, unfortunately this is part of life. With this said and done I shall continue to digress.

 

I have two cousins who work at the Metropolitan, both disagree as to how accepting the police have been to gay hate crimes. Now whenever I throw them statistics, they laugh at me and remind that I dont live the Britain anymore. They basically tell me to stop formulating opinions and listen to their experiences. Now both of these individuals have never visited the U.S. Everything they see about life in America is thru print media and satelite TV. On occassion myself. What they say to me is this, we in the US are very much behind in progressing to reach out to gay crime victims. However, this is the sticking point, one cousin believes that there is work to be done to make gays more tolerable in Britain. The other believes, gays have reached their peak in terms of getting out the message of acceptance. Again one get ten thousand different experts with ten thousand different points of view.

 

>US police = facist, bad, gay-hating, mean

>Europe police = kind,

 

>As long as you have shallow, slogan-addicted people who are

>desperate to be loved by their Government, all you'll need to

>do is throw them a few "progressive" words and they will

>blindly adore you. It doesn't matter if this crime is solved

>to them. What matters is that the Police said the word "gay"

>without saying mean things about them. Therefore, they feel

>loved. Therefore, the police, and govenrment, has done its

>job.

 

I'm going to mention something that is a bit political and I suppose I should post this in the political discussion forum. I hope you guys can forgive me for what I'm about to write. So bear with me as much as you can. A few years ago now, the Tory party in Britain were about to chose a new leader to replace William Hague, one the candidates considered was a politican by the name of Michael Portillo. He was a familar name in conservative circles but somewhat of a fresh face to Tory Politics. He had the perfect credentials, he had charm, good speaker, strong family values, believed in advancing the Conservative Agenda. He even took on the issue of gay rights and made it clear that not on his watch would gays ever be allowed to be married and he made it clear that he believed in the sanctity of the marriage between a man and a woman. The perfect Conservative candidate for the leadership position. He even received backing from Former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. He was even touted within the press as a future Prime Minister.

 

Somewhere someone at the Guardian Newspaper did some digging up on Mr Portillo's life and discovered something very profound. When Michael Portillo was a junior Minister working his way up in the ranks of Jonn Major's government, Mr Portillo had an extra marital affair. Not uncommon for politicians, however there was a slight twist, apparently Mr Portillo was having an affair not with another woman, but rather it turned out to be a young gay guy who worked on Mr Portillo office staff. At first when the press reported this, he denied this and he even had his wife to back him up. Then supposedly the young man that Mr Portillo was seeing claimed that he would be willing to talk for a huge sum of money. Mr Portillo decided rather than continuing to carry on with his leadership bid, changed his mind and decided to knock it on the head. This marked the end of a promising career. To think, the Conservatives almost elected a closeted gay guy as their leader and maybe a potential Prime Minister. Still Mr Portillo got awfully close to being in a leadership role. He worked for the British Govrnment and acted in a shallow fashion by not being open with the public.

 

Again I want to apologise for going totally off course from the original thread.

 

Rohale

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Guest rohale

>>I wouldn't exactly praise the Metropolitan Police too much.

>

>

>Why not? Everyone knows that everything that is not in

>America - ESPECIALLY when it's in (said with whispered

>reverence) Europe - is englightened and good and progressive

>and just.

 

First of I want to apologise due to the fact that the original thread was about a gay man who was murdered and how the case is progressing. Somehow the thread has gone off track slightly so. I'm partially responsible for making it. So for anyone who are scratching their heads and thinking how could this have happened, what can I say, unfortunately this is part of life. With this said and done I shall continue to digress.

 

I have two cousins who work at the Metropolitan, both disagree as to how accepting the police have been to gay hate crimes. Now whenever I throw them statistics, they laugh at me and remind that I dont live the Britain anymore. They basically tell me to stop formulating opinions and listen to their experiences. Now both of these individuals have never visited the U.S. Everything they see about life in America is thru print media and satelite TV. On occassion myself. What they say to me is this, we in the US are very much behind in progressing to reach out to gay crime victims. However, this is the sticking point, one cousin believes that there is work to be done to make gays more tolerable in Britain. The other believes, gays have reached their peak in terms of getting out the message of acceptance. Again one get ten thousand different experts with ten thousand different points of view.

 

>US police = facist, bad, gay-hating, mean

>Europe police = kind,

 

>As long as you have shallow, slogan-addicted people who are

>desperate to be loved by their Government, all you'll need to

>do is throw them a few "progressive" words and they will

>blindly adore you. It doesn't matter if this crime is solved

>to them. What matters is that the Police said the word "gay"

>without saying mean things about them. Therefore, they feel

>loved. Therefore, the police, and govenrment, has done its

>job.

 

I'm going to mention something that is a bit political and I suppose I should post this in the political discussion forum. I hope you guys can forgive me for what I'm about to write. So bear with me as much as you can. A few years ago now, the Tory party in Britain were about to chose a new leader to replace William Hague, one the candidates considered was a politican by the name of Michael Portillo. He was a familar name in conservative circles but somewhat of a fresh face to Tory Politics. He had the perfect credentials, he had charm, good speaker, strong family values, believed in advancing the Conservative Agenda. He even took on the issue of gay rights and made it clear that not on his watch would gays ever be allowed to be married and he made it clear that he believed in the sanctity of the marriage between a man and a woman. The perfect Conservative candidate for the leadership position. He even received backing from Former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. He was even touted within the press as a future Prime Minister.

 

Somewhere someone at the Guardian Newspaper did some digging up on Mr Portillo's life and discovered something very profound. When Michael Portillo was a junior Minister working his way up in the ranks of Jonn Major's government, Mr Portillo had an extra marital affair. Not uncommon for politicians, however there was a slight twist, apparently Mr Portillo was having an affair not with another woman, but rather it turned out to be a young gay guy who worked on Mr Portillo office staff. At first when the press reported this, he denied this and he even had his wife to back him up. Then supposedly the young man that Mr Portillo was seeing claimed that he would be willing to talk for a huge sum of money. Mr Portillo decided rather than continuing to carry on with his leadership bid, changed his mind and decided to knock it on the head. This marked the end of a promising career. To think, the Conservatives almost elected a closeted gay guy as their leader and maybe a potential Prime Minister. Still Mr Portillo got awfully close to being in a leadership role. He worked for the British Govrnment and acted in a shallow fashion by not being open with the public.

 

Again I want to apologise for going totally off course from the original thread.

 

Rohale

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Guest icon513

Looks like the cops may have found their man:

 

 

 

Friday, 6 August, 2004, 21:23 GMT 22:23 UK

 

Man charged over masseur killing

 

Mr Trikhana was known locally as "Nikki"

 

A man has been charged with the murder of a Thai masseur who was found stabbed and strangled in his flat last month.

 

The body of Niphan Trikhana, known as Nikki, was found with a cord round his neck at the flat in Chelsea, west London, by his landlord on 23 July.

 

Darren Johnson, 27, from south-west London, has been charged with murder and will appear on Saturday before West London Magistrates' Court.

 

Tests showed Mr Trikhana, who was 32, died from strangulation.

 

He had come to the UK in 2001, and had moved from a flat in Notting Hill 10 days before his death.

 

He was also studying English at the nearby Lilian Bishop School in Harrington Road.

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RE: Thai Gay Masseur / Escort Murdered

 

In England thre are very strict reporting restrictions to protect the accused from a predudiced jury at any trial. If he had been arrested but not charged, his name or details would not be available. Now he has been charged, the article contains about all that can be legally reported.

 

There has been an interesting story line in one of the biggest evening drama series here. "The Bill" is a twice weekly police series set in a Meetropolitan police station shown at 8pm for an hour in the main terrestrial commercial station. Having already covered a confused gay policeman marrying a woman police officer and regretting it (he has now left the series), they currently have an out black policeman. He identified the teenage son of a woman officer as gay and offered to help him, giving him his cellphone number. That was used in a bomb attack that hit a senior officer in error. The black guy got a threatening text message and the sending phone was found in the teen's bedroom. This had been planted bu another member of a homophobic gang the gay teenager was involved with in a denial effort.

 

The mother goes to a Catholic priest for help and gets rejection. She then asks her gay colleague for help. The gay officer, his boyfriend and the mother and son go toa gay club. Mother turns into a bit of a fag hag. Happy ending (OK bit of a naff story but shows the scriptwriters are trying!)

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RE: Thai Gay Masseur / Escort Murdered

 

A report giving virtually the same wording was the lead item in the London area news front page of the BBC site. Its prominence compared to say a US news site of a similar incildent is partly a function of a slowish news day and the relatively fewer numbers of murders here.

 

No link to the news front page as it is often updated but this to the report which will no doubt be updated after the initial hearing and have links once the trial gets underway, probably late this year or early next.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3543648.stm

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Guest icon513

RE: Thai Gay Masseur / Escort Murdered

 

>"Looks like the cops may have found their man:"

>

>Except that the article you quote doesn't incriminate him at

>all.

>

 

 

I said "may" have found their man. And he HAS been charged. Could we perhaps be being a bit pedantic?

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