The way I see things

[seaboy4hire]

Ok I am going to go out on a limb here a very thin and shaky one and say somethings that may not bust my popularity but oh well fuck it. I have nothing to loose. So here is goes. First I think that it was sad that chgboy was kicked from the board and Doug and one or two might be right behind. I don't always agree with some of the posters here on the board but some like Doug and Chgboy have made some very valid points recently and in the past. Even though I don't often agree with Doug his posts are about 99% thought out very well and he is good at making his point and often times gets me to think about different topics in a different light. Some of those that have recently been kicked often times shed a different light on topics and is a nice fresh breath of air. I enjoy reading and sometimes when the fancy tickeles me talking about things that I normaly wouldn't get a chance to do and I enjoy reading those posts that are not in line with my own views whether I agree with them or not. Right now it seems like the mc is becoming pretty bland with many of the same thougts and ideas. How can we exchange ideas and thoughts if more often then not they are the same? How can the site grow and become better? I honestly do not think it can. Chgoboy had some valid questions and I don't think it would have been too hard for daddy or whomever to fire off an email or post their replies. If they would have done so I think that some of this mess could have been avoided. Well that is all I have to say for now. If you agree cool. If not cool. I don't really care that much.

 

Hugs,

Greg

Greg Seattle Wa seaboy4hire@yahoo.com

http://www.male4malescorts.com/reviews/gregseattle.html

http://seaboy4hire.tripod.com

[BobbyThompson]

I would guess that they were not kicked off for differing opinions but for the manner in which they prefer to express them.

 

I agree that we all benefit from the free flow of ideas, but when ideas are garbled in a sea of vitriol, the actual content is no longer valid.

[Rick Munroe]

>Right now it seems like the mc is

>becoming pretty bland with many of the same thougts and ideas.

>How can we exchange ideas and thoughts if more often then not

>they are the same? How can the site grow and become better?

 

Greg, I agree that it is intellectually stimulating (I stole that phrase from the Brady Bunch...the episode where Marcia enters high school and tries to talk "mature") to read opposing points of view and to get into respectful debate. There were some great threads in the past where I learned a thing or two from reading, with an open mind (or trying to, anyway), posts by people who had completely different viewpoints than mine. However, it seems like lately, some have been more interested in discussing the inner workings of this message board than other topics. I'm not saying that the inner workings of M4M aren't interesting or that they shouldn't be discussed. I'm just saying, and I guess I agree/disagree with you at the same time, that if you want to exchange thoughts and ideas, then let's (those of us who feel that way) start threads about stuff that interests us. However, personally, I am not interested in threads about the message center, for the same reason that I don't enjoy reality shows about Hollywood and show biz.

[Boston Guy]

Thoughtful post, Greg. You raise good issues.

 

The topic of free speech at M4M has come up many times over the past six years. Even though the constitution doesn't say anything about freedom of speech in private venues like this one, we Americans tend to be pretty demanding about our freedom to speak our mind -- and rightly so.

 

The current set of rules seem to be almost exactly the same as the previous rules in this regard. They don't prohibit much in the way of discussion, as I read them. They try to protect M4M by prohibiting pornography, posts in foreign languages and blatant free advertising. They try to protect the people who come here by prohibiting libel, the release of personal information, and direct personal attacks. Other than that, the rules seem to allow pretty much open discussion. Is it your opinion that these rules are too restrictive?

 

Regarding ChgoBoy, Doug and some of the others who are participating in the "revolt" board, I think it's a different story. It's quite clear from comments on the "revolt" board that they are engaged in a campaign with one target: M4M. I do not understand why they are attempting to damage a site that has been so helpful to so many, but it is clear that are engaged in a campaign to do exactly that. Anyone who believes anything to the contrary is simply naive.

 

If I invite people to my house for dinner, I don't place restrictions on what they can say at the dinner table and we've had some pretty loud and confrontational discussions from time to time. However, if a guest began to really insult another guest in a personal manner, it would be uncomfortable for all and I would ask them to stop. I would feel no compulsion at all in making such a request. If the guest refused, I might end up getting to a point where I would ask him to leave. If, upon being asked to leave, he shouted out that he was going to burn my house down, well, he most certainly wouldn't be welcome back again anytime soon.

 

I think Doug and Chgoboy and the six or eight other people posting at the "revolt" site are like the obnoxious dinner guest. They seem to believe that their opinions about M4M are somehow better than those held by others; they seem to have a belief that they alone see things clearly. They are willing to engage in tactics that disrupt this board and the other people who come here solely to further their own goals, not caring one iota about the rights of others.

 

They have claimed to be acting on principle, but they're pretty darn choosy about what principles they choose to respect. And they're uncaring about the rights of M4M itself, a private enterprise that reflects six hard years of work by Hooboy and tens of thousands of contributions by other people who felt they were helping to build something special.

 

I have no connection whatsoever with the management or administration of M4M. I've never even met any of the moderators or any of the people involved in running it (except HB, once, and I didn't know it was him until later). So my comments are made purely from the standpoint of someone who believes M4M in general, and this Message Center in particular, is a very special place. I don't like it when people think that they have a right to destroy it just because they don't think things are done in exactly the manner they think they should be done. They don't stop to consider that while the six of them may not like the way things are done here, there may well be thousands of others who come here who have been quite satisfied with the way things have been going. In their minds, their own opinion is all that counts and screw the thousands of others who come here.

 

Finally, I don't trust the motives of some of them at all. I won't name names at this point. Some are being led by others in a sort of frenzy of "activism". But I believe that the ringleaders are motivated by desires quite different than those they have expressed and they are attempting to hurt M4M for private, personal reasons.

 

BG

[raife]

Damn Greg I love your egalitarian ass! I do so wish you were an LA escort so I could be your humble client and suck up some of your supreme equanimity! Alas I just posted then retracted these thoughts:[blockquote]I must say that while I'm not the biggest fan of your writings by any means, I think this site would be diminished by your expulsion. I can definitely see what Hooboy meant about your attacking the issue, not the person and I've been dredging through the archives to find quite a few unexpected gems of wisdom from you. Having a sociable curmudgeon around livens up debates, and I love a healthy vigorous thrashing through the issues, but some of your desert rat colleagues can't sustain this debate mode without resorting to ad hominem and downright nasty invective. Just count the number of times the word "sicko" has been used on that other site in the last few days. Your demeanor these last few days shows that you are a worthy member of this site, and even if you don't like the idea of a "gentleman's club", it's within the perogatives of a gentleman to "respectfully disagree" maybe even agressively. I think the Management would draw the line somewhere around a libelous brawl that chases off more than attracts.

 

Anyway, just my 2¢, I'd love it if you'd stick around awhile (but don't forget to take your meds!) [/blockquote]Then I went over there and read Doug's completely venomous ad hominem attack on BNs latest blog entries and just saw bloody red. Here's a man that thinks a gay prostitute isn't worthy of feeling pride, (why, because he believes gay escorts are the lowest of the low on the totempole of sexual perversity?) and is hypocritical of asking for decorum in gay pride marches (why, because BN flaunts his shameful perversity by promoting his escort services all over the Internet Ghod forbid!)

 

I like the curmudgeonly angle as much as the next guy, but damn Greg, how can you just look past all of that hatred of gay prostitution, something in which you hold a large stake as well, to see the value of his occasional gold nuggets? I'm sincere in wanting to better myself but there's a little PC pride angle that I can't get beyond. I like BN am very proud of who I am, including the hire escorts part. Why should I hate what I do (pay for callboys) just because our back-asswards primitive Puritanical society-at-large frowns upon this activity, as apparently does Doug? It's fine in much of Europe, it was fine in Ancient Greece, maybe the birthplace of western civ, maybe primarily because of the whole gay classical mentor angle, the older men took younger men under their wing, paid their way, helped them see how society worked, and helped them achieve incredible heights.

 

Dude, my love of the prostitution scene comes from a whole different place, I was profoundly moved by [a href=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0919123317/qid=1118886819/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-2449087-2108706]reading this book[/a] (note, the sacred part applies to male prostitution as well) and I have a hellacious internal conflict trying to dialog with your colleagues from the other board who seem to have such unmitigated hatred for so much I hold dear.

 

I certianly don't fault you and your friends for straddling both boards there are some cool guys, your friends, and valuable things being said over there as well. I too want to see as many m4m escort boards pop up as the audience will allow, but I'm hard pressed to chime in over there with such a poisonous unhealthy-to-self-esteem atmosphere being the norm. Let the desert rats amble over here and mock my (and BN's) pride in ourselves and the scene. I do see them for the sad shadows of social dissaproval they really are. I refuse to crawl under a rock because of their primitive ascetic religious tendencies, and I'll fight in the Culture War for a society in which our alternative sexuality is just one accepted part of a larger panoply of polyamory.

 

You're a jewel, Greg & sorry for the ramble.

[BigK]

Guess I'd like to know the reasons before I jump on the throw em out bandwagon.

 

As a community shouldn't we have a right to know the offense, otherwise how would we know if it was an arbitraty Big Brother decision. Especially since we now all have to agree to the rules every time we sign on.

 

Some pretty heavy handed stuff has happened here like shutting down the message board.

[noviceny]

I must be seriously deficient cause I dont know where yall are getting your info about who's kicked off and who is still here. Maybe I am just missing some very important threads

[jackhammer91406]

Greg,

While I have stated that I have also learned a thing or two from reading various postings made here, I cannot agree that decisions involving chgoboy should be second guessed.

 

It appears to me from his posts that he was really trying to get booted as if to prove his point(s). While he may have had valid concerns and questions, he clearly wanted to test the limits, and as a result, what might have been discussed via private emails with admin , he chose to do in a very public way.

 

What is troubling to me about this whole mess (as I understand from talking to people who have been to the other board) the accusations about Hooboy's wishes for this board and his heirs apparently are subjects that some feel should be discussed openly. We live in an era where people simply can tell a lie and swear to it, (paraphrasing Arthur Miller in his classic THE CRUCIBLE)and destroy even the most sterling reputation . A refusal to engage in a response is taken to mean guilt. In today's climate of bitter debate and polarization, there is simply no way to counter a lie by simply telling the truth. Many accusers are predisposed not to believe the truth even when it is in front of them.

 

As I said in another thread, no one should be surprised when they are tossed after breaking the rules. The rules have been made very clear. You can disagree all you want about the validity of those rules, but it is not our sandbox, we don't make the rules. If you want to play, you play by the rules. Those who want unfettered debate where anything is fair game, should play in another sandbox. Just as with free market economies, if the result is that less people will want to play here, then the place will cease to be and that's the way it is.

 

Blessings come how they come. This place has been a blessing to many. many, many men in it's history. But those who are blessed don't get to decide how the blessing comes. It is just a blessing, take it or leave it.

[Guest Florida Guy]

ChgoGuy was just like the bully in the school yard. He just kept pushing and pushing... trying to pick a fight. Why? I have no idea. But I won't miss him. Every post was the same thing... a poke here, a snide remark there. He knew he would get kicked off here. That's probably what he wanted. So now he can be the martyr. He has his "alternative" sandbox to play in, so let him pick a fight there. Thanks Daddy.

[Txpaytoplay]

When did all of this take place? And what other board are we speaking of? I have missed something.

[Fit In LA]

Florida Guy has expressed the truth very well.During his entire

time here ChgoGuy has been on the edge trying at every oppportuntiy to cause trouble and spreading hate.

Just remember or read some of his underhanded posts.

 

THANK YOU DADDY for this site and your efforts to provide a great and enjoyable experience for everyone here.

[noviceny]

>When did all of this take place? And what other board are we

>speaking of? I have missed something.

 

 

you and me both TX...there is another website that has been created...its name is "The Island for Misfit Toys " :-)

 

j/k I think its called Revolt

[+ deej]

http://p101.ezboard.com/brevoltrevolt20873

 

Enjoy!

 

Maybe you'll get fortunate (someone didn't want me to use the word lucky) and they'll post YOUR drivers license, too.

[OneFinger]

>Maybe you'll get fortunate and they'll post YOUR drivers license, too.

 

OK, I'll ask the important question. Did they REALLY do that or just threaten to "expose" you?

 

We've had people make threats to give out personal info on this site. But, did they actually do it?

[+ deej]

Not mine. Hooboy's.

 

And yes, they did it.

[Boston Guy]

Yes.

 

But it wasn't "they". It was Doug.

 

He posted an image of HB's driver's license, with all information totally legible. Nice, huh? It was eventually removed, but that's just a taste of the kind of "principles" driving the guys that Greg wants to defend.

 

BG

[trilingual]

>But, did they actually do it?

 

They actually posted HooBoy's driver's license. Someone also posted a picture of Deej with his car, clearly showing its license plate. Both were eventually edited and/or removed by the operator of the other site, from what I can tell.

[seaboy4hire]

The copy of the licens I saw ALL info on Hoo was blured out.

Greg Seattle Wa seaboy4hire@yahoo.com

http://www.male4malescorts.com/reviews/gregseattle.html

http://seaboy4hire.tripod.com

[+ deej]

You saw it after it was doctored. The information was clearly visible when first posted.

[woodlawn]

RE: BG, please stay home.

 

>I think Doug and Chgoboy and the six or eight other people

>posting at the "revolt" site are like the obnoxious dinner

>guest.

 

Since I have posted at the other site, I take it that I am one of the "other people" to whom you refer above. If "we" are like the obnoxious dinner guest in your rather lugubrious analogy, there is one important difference: when we post on the other board we are not guests in YOUR house. We are at home there, and we have no reason to concern ourselves with your opinion of what we do there.

 

Anyone who posts here is welcome to visit there -- you've obviously spent quite a bit of time there, which is odd behavior for someone who claims to dislike the place so much. Anyone is welcome to visit, but no one has the right to tell us that we ought to abide by the rules of someone else's house when we are in our own house. We will say and do what we like there. That obviously upsets you, but there is nothing much you can do about it. Why not just stay away? You won't be missed.

 

 

>They seem to believe that their opinions about M4M are

>somehow better than those held by others; they seem to have a

>belief that they alone see things clearly.

 

That is incredibly funny coming from you. In all the years I have been reading this board, I have never encountered anyone who has a greater propensity for lecturing other people on how he thinks they should behave than you do. You do it constantly. I have seen countless examples of hypocrisy on this board, but for you to criticize others for believing that their opinions are better is the most hypocritical statement I have ever seen.

 

I won't dignify with a response your absurd conspiracy theory about a cabal who are trying to destroy this site, other than to say that if there is a conspiracy, it is a conspiracy designed to demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to run a message board on this subject without the kind of favoritism and censorship that have sometimes occurred here. It will show -- already has, in fact -- that the censors here are not being honest when they claim that their censorship is necessary so that the board can achieve its mission of entertaining and informing. With that argument destroyed, one is left with the truth -- they do what they do for no other reason than that they want to.

[Doug69]

>I like the curmudgeonly angle as much as the next guy, but

>damn Greg, how can you just look past all of that

>hatred of gay prostitution, something in which you hold a

>large stake as well, to see the value of his occasional gold

>nuggets? I'm sincere in wanting to better myself but there's a

>little PC pride angle that I can't get beyond. I like BN am

>very proud of who I am, including the hire escorts part.

 

Not for the first time, you've completely missed the point due to the suffocating lens of trite PC orthodoxy through which you frequently view everything.

 

I did not say that there was anything wrong with being a gay prostitute because I do not believe that to be true. Please process this fact before proceeding.

 

I was commenting on a specific point BN raised in his latest entry on his blog, entitled "15 Minutes." Specificially, BN talked about Gay Pride celebriations, and aggressively criticized the gay men and women who frequent Gay Pride events on the ground that they engage in openly sexualized behavior (such as wearing g-strings or dressing in drag), which causes "the straight community" - UNDERSTANDABLY, according to him - to develop negative ideas about gay people and to see us as "freaks."

 

He recommended that gay people be less sexualized in their public behavior becuase, that way, straight people would think better of us.

 

I found it somewhat astoudning that Benji, of all people, would condemn other gay people for engaging in acts of public sexuality and would urge other gay people to present a more asexual face publicly, given that he is a gay prostitute who writes a very public blog detailing his prostitution escapades, posts multiple nude photos on his public blog every week, and talks openly about the enjoyment he gets watching strangers bareback each other in bathhouses.

 

The idea here - and it's not that complicated - is NOT that the gay prostitution behavior in which BN is engaging is, in any way, wrong. It's that the behavior in which he very publicly engages is exactly the same as - actually, much more extreme than - the behavior of the Gay Pride participants which he was condemning so starkly.

 

To put it another way, the point that was being made had absolutely nothing whatsover to do with the point you thought was made. In fact, it was the opposite.

 

The only one condemning people for their sexual behavior was BN himself, by telling the go-go boys and drag queens at Gay Pride rallies to stop flaunting their sexuality in public becuase it makes straight people think we are "freaks." My point was to observe that BN - given his unparalleled publicly sexual behavior - is a rather odd person to be delivering lectures on the evils of gay people expressing themselves sexually in a public venue.

 

Do you get it now?

[Doug69]

>They actually posted HooBoy's driver's license. Someone also

>posted a picture of Deej with his car, clearly showing its

>license plate. Both were eventually edited and/or removed by

>the operator of the other site, from what I can tell.

 

I believe it was you, Trilingual, who made all sorts of extremely public disclosures about HB - things he CLEARLY did not want anyone to know - in one of your posts there in which you were preening about how important you found personal privacy to be.

 

Between disclosure of his driver's license for a very legitimate purpose and the stuff you told everyone about some of the struggles he had in his personal life, I don't think it's a close call which one he'd find more objectionable.

 

The LAST person qualified to condemn disclosures about people is you, after all the stuff you publicized about HB over there.

>

[Boston Guy]

RE: BG, please stay home.

 

>We will say and do what we like

>there. That obviously upsets you, but there is nothing much

>you can do about it. Why not just stay away? You won't be

>missed.

>

>

 

I could care less what anyone posts there. It takes barely a few minutes scanning the posts there to make it perfectly clear that there's not a thing worth reading.

 

I was referring to the posts that the various members of your cabal have made here, at M4M.

 

 

>I won't dignify with a response your absurd conspiracy theory

>about a cabal who are trying to destroy this site, other than

>to say that if there is a conspiracy, it is a conspiracy

>designed to demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to run a

>message board on this subject without the kind of favoritism

>and censorship that have sometimes occurred here.

 

That's your opinion. My statement about the motives of certain members behind the "revolt" stands.

 

 

>It will

>show -- already has, in fact -- that the censors here are not

>being honest when they claim that their censorship is

>necessary so that the board can achieve its mission of

>entertaining and informing. With that argument destroyed, one

>is left with the truth -- they do what they do for no other

>reason than that they want to.

 

 

It is my sincere hope that the "revolting" board will prove entertaining enough for those who post there that they will feel no need whatsover to post here at all. Sadly, since virtually the entire content of that site is one long diatribe against M4M, it's not likely to draw anyone's attention for long.

 

Finally, I have posted here many times that I respected you. I have defended you and stood up for you, at times when no one else would. But, having read what you have written over the course of the last month, I find I must withdraw my statements of respect and support.

 

BG

[Boston Guy]

>Between disclosure of his driver's license for a very

>legitimate purpose...

 

Riiiight... Everyone who posts there should make certain not to cross you in case you decide that you have a "very legitimate purpose" for disclosing their personal information.

 

BG

[Doug69]

RE: BG, please stay home.

 

>Finally, I have posted here many times that I respected you.

>I have defended you and stood up for you, at times when no one

>else would. But, having read what you have written over the

>course of the last month, I find I must withdraw my statements

>of respect and support.

 

OH NO! Time for someone to start an immediate suicide watch for Woodlawn. Remove all razor blades and sheets from his room at once! How ever will be able to cope with this devestating blow - a recission of respect and support from the Father of Propriety and Wisdom.